To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

Ok, bite the bullet and let dh take them overnight. Explain to your youngest he is a big boy now and doesn't need milk at night then let your xdp have them overnight with strict instructions not to call you. Sticking plaster approach. A break one night a week will benefit you all more than the trauma of breaking the habit with dad.

I think it totally depends on the kid. Me and my friends all would have done similar things eg bf, co sleeping etc and everyone of us ended up with different results.

My DD1 doesn’t like sleeping with us even when sick so I’m assuming she just likes her own space. Due DD2 very soon and praying she likes sleep - I don’t do well on little sleep.

I think you’ve an Exh problem though - he should be doing more.

We had a palaver of a bed time with our 1 year old. I visited a friend with similar aged kids in Paris (on my own felt very brave) and her and I went out for dinner at her suggestion as I was abit nervous leaving PFB with my friends DH. He was a corporate lawyer, just done 12 hour day, father of 3 and ignored my careful instructions about lying down with DD, doing x then y.

On our return he said "yeah she cried abit then went to sleep" and the spell was broken.

@SinkGirl

I’m feeding my 3mo, the same way you had to! Sorry, just saw that and felt compelled to tell you that. Nobody else I know is doing it.

Anywho, we did a wuss version of controlled crying with my eldest. I think it’s called rapid return? I don’t know if it made much difference, but we somehow seem to have a 3mo who actually likes sleeping at night . Nothing like dc1. I think it’s mainly down to the baby etc. But I get what the op means too. It can be a lot of pressure being completely baby led. It made me a bit obsessed and on edge all the time rather than relaxed. I think do whatever works for the family, (within reason obviously).

Fwiw, I know one parent who did cry it out quite early on and her dc is still one of the worst sleepers I’ve heard of, (which is why her mum was desperate enough to do cio in the first place I guess).

OP you are not weak, you have not and are not doing anything wrong.

You are correct in the fact that your DCs sleeping issues are not the real problem here. Your ‘husband’ only left a year ago, as a unit you are still recovering from a traumatic time. This could totally affect your sleep and your children’s sleep - they pick up on more than you could ever realise! If it’s been an uncertain time with tons of change, they will feel scared and uncertain, just like you do and the result of that is that they will want to be with you All. The. Time.

You’re tired, you’re doubting yourself, your tool of of an ExH is criticising you and you’ve had enough.

I’m not sure what to suggest but you don’t need to sleep train your children. I don’t believe you made a rod for your own back. I believe you’ve been in an impossible situation for too long and you’ve done whatever you’ve needed to get by.

I’m not suggesting this because I think you’re suffering with poor MH but perhaps a chat with your GP to see about next steps in helping your children with their sleep and adapting to the change and if there’s any support you can acccess.

Babies don’t know they have to sleep through the night. It’s tough but we did co-sleeping and it worked for us. I fed but DH did his bit so we shared the pain of lack of sleep.

Please do not put your marriage breakup on your poor children. It sounds like your ex did that all on his own!

I think it is a mixture of nature and nurture. But I honestly couldn't cope without my sleep.

Was always very religious with routine and strict with self settling (not CIO) and then putting dd back to bed as she got older. She is now 2.5 and goes to bed like a dream. Pyjamas, teeth, cuddle then we say goodnight and close the door and that's it until morning. She wakes up in the middle of the night and just chats to herself until she goes back to sleep. I don't think she is a particularly good sleeper tbh but she has learnt to get on with it by herself.
Obviously if she is upset or anything then she gets cuddles and reassurance but once she is okay it's back to bed. She has tried it on a few times in the past, asking for a drink or wanting to chat and play in the middle of the night, but we just didn't entertain it, straight back to bed.

I guess you do what is best for you, I couldn't handle co sleeping or night feeds past the necessary age so I put alot of energy into ensuring I didn't have to. Fair play to those that can handle it though, your stronger than me. I'm just a mess on anything less than 7hrs sleep ha.

I do think that staying strong and sticking with a strategy for a few nights does pay off though....If you are not happy with the way things are and want it to change.

Anywho, we did a wuss version of controlled crying with my eldest. I think it’s called rapid return? I don’t know if it made much difference, but we somehow seem to have a 3mo who actually likes sleeping at night

To clarify; we haven’t done rapid return with the 3mo. He just sleeps on his own somehow. It was the older one (now 3) who we did rr with when she was an older baby.

Once my kids were old enough a switch clicked and I could let them cry it out a little. In the first 6 months their cry would break my heart and I’d have to pick them up.

It was as if after 6 months that they’re cry changed and they were a little stronger. I would let them cry it out and self settle.
They are all brilliant sleepers. I go with the rule of 3. Three days of any routine and they seem to get it.

I needed to have them sleeping so that I could function as their mum.

I had 4 in 4 years which is a big like being in a war zone . DH has been my rock though!

Also, my mum’s tip-make yourself scarier that whatever they are scared of during the night 😂. I’m 35 and I’d still not dare wake up my lovely mum during the night .

I fucking hate that phrase rod for your own back.

I feel for you OP as I have a terrible sleeper (toddler now) , there is a reason sleep deprivation is used as torture. I sleep trained for months using sleep experts advice and no joy. I tried sleep training, gradual retreat with a mix of letting him cry a little helped a bit but I tried everything. Controlled crying, crying it out (desperate times), no cry...I could go on.

Actually all they did was was make things worse. Every time I heard that phrase, usually followed by 'have you tried letting them cry/have you tried breastfeeding to sleep/having a routine' I honestly wanted to scream.

What works for some won't for others. Some don't sleep properly until they are teens and then won't ever get up!

You aren't weak, you are being ground down and are in survival mode. Perfectly normal.

Agree about the 6 months thing. I would never attempt to sleep train before 6 months. I did a wuss version too-not the full Gina. Basically leaving for a bit to cry each time instead of immediately rushing in but being by the door, not in another room with headphones on or anything. Took a few days.
I knew several women who did the bf whenever baby wants right up until they can stand up and order a steak for themselves thing, but for me it was post pnd self preservation to finally be able to get some sleep.
Good luck OP-you have had a shitty time it sounds like.Sorry your ex is a knob

I'm so sorry you're struggling, Op. It does read to me as if the problem was/is with your ex leaving it all to you.

I honestly think kids are born good or bad sleepers. I know people who've done rigorous sleep training - even paid a really expensive sleep consultant - and it's made not a scrap of difference.

My toddler was not sleep trained and i fed her to sleep until about 16 months (with a sneaky toothbrush when she was flat out!). She was terrible as a young baby; a delightful sleeper from about 8 months - 2, and now at 2.5 she sleeps well enough but sometimes it takes up to 90 mins for her to shush, lie down and sleep. Whereas I was always a terrible sleeper apparently, and to this day am a very light sleeper who wakes at a sparrow fart and often have nights when I can't sleep at all or really struggle to drop off.

- some very helpful suggestions on this thread and hope it gets better soon.

I think every child has their own sleep pattern and if you're lucky then you find what that is and it coincides with what you want to/can do, and if not then you're up shit creek.
Ds1 was easy peasy, I bf him to sleep, put him down and he slept through from about 7 months. Lovely.
Ds2 was a fucking nightmare and did not sleep through a single night until he was 18mo regardless of whether I bf or not, co-slept or not. We tried everything. Every single thing. And nothing at all worked. Nothing. I was an absolute zombie. There were days when I could not remember being up because I was so exhausted.
And then....suddenly, he only woke once or twice (instead of every hour or more)...and then....slept through....it was like nirvana.
He is 3 now and a brilliant sleeeper - goes to bed with no problems at all, falls asleep quickly, and sleeps through. He's an early riser - any time between 5 and 6am, but that I can totally cope with.

So OP I'm really, really sorry you're having a shit time, and I sympathise from the bottom of my heart, but really don#t beat yourself up - sleep training might have helped, but it might not. Keep trying different routines as maybe something will work...or maybe it will just resolve itself and there's nothing at all you could have done to hasten it.

All children are different but we taught our daughter to settle on her own from day 1 and she was sleeping through at about 6 weeks. She is nearly 5 now and has always slept well. In bed at 7 on a school night, up at 7 the next morning. On a weekend she will be in bed at 8 and up at 8 so always gets a good 12 hours. You can only go by your own experience, it worked for us.

Op, you aren’t weak. You are doing what ever you have to do to get through this hard time in your life. It is so hard to try and change anything in your life when you are on your knees with exhaustion. Even changing the smallest thing takes a massive effort and I completely get why you are struggling.

FWIW, when I had ds, who was an appallingly bad sleeper (and still doesn’t need anywhere near as much sleep as other children his age), he wasn’t the worst in our post natal group. That prize went to the ff baby who was put in the cot in her own room every night and delt with in her own room. Ds was bf and we co slept so at least I could get some sleep while he fed.

So you might still have had bad sleepers even if you had used other methods. It’s what worked for you at the time and got you through each day and each night.
I do agree that your ex should be stepping up more to have the dc. If you were still together he would have had to come up with methods to comfort the younger one, so he should be able to have a go now. Paint it as an adventure to your dc, it is important that they have a relationship with their father and it is important that you get some time to recharge your batteries.

I hear you OP. I have a two year old who still wakes and breast feeds in the night. It's exhausting. I am trying to night wean but it's not going well. She ends up in our bed most nights. The thing is I have two older children who I didn't sleep train either, yet they both slept through from 12 months. They were also easier to wean. So I'm not sure sleep training would have been the answer for you either. I hope things get a little easier for you soon though

My kids are the same age as yours op I've never sleep trained and bf both of them till they were 18-22 months.
5 year old has progressed in the last 6 months to falling asleep alone, which is a massive help when my dh is away (usually every week). He has also slept in his own bed last 4 nights in a row. Start with getting older one to.fall asleep alone, I say I'll come back in 1 minute, then 2, then 5. You can leave longer gaps than you say. It's worked really well.
Little one has stories in my bed, then a song, then he goes to sleep being cuddled. I put him in his cot, he always wakes during the night but does go back.to.sleep unless he's ill or something.
It will get better, sounds like you are at the end.of your rope now though and need your ex to step up. He could at least take the older dc overnight.

You are NOT weak OP. You're coping by yourself with two small children with no help from your ex. Sounds like he's the weak one. I hope things improve for you soon

We sleep trained. We didn't really know any other methods as our mothers had done that and it was in the ante natal booklet from the hospital. DS was sleeping through the nights at 5 weeks and DD by 12 (and we were outraged that she took soooooo much longer - it felt like - than her brother). Each parent should do what they feel is right. There is certainly nothing wrong with sleep training.

How can all these tiny babies be sleeping through at 5/6 weeks etc? Don't they need feeding at night at that age??

Two of mine (ebf) slept eight hours a night at 6-8 weeks.

KitchenWitch Well mine weren't tiny,over twelve pounds by six weeks. I assume had they wanted feeding they would have woken but seeing as they didn't then I assumed they didn't. In bed at eight, dream feed when I went to bed at eleven, up at six.

I don’t understand feeding kids during the night for an extended period? I knew someone who complained bitterly that they ‘had’ to get up during the night to give their 2yo a warm bottle of milk - or they would not go back to sleep. If I knew someone was going to make me a nice warm beverage half-way through the night I would be bloody tempted to wake up also. I suggested consistently offering water instead and ignoring the fuss. Kid will soon realise it’s water only, no compromise and its just not worth waking up for it. Apparently this is abusive so it’s better to keep on with the incentive and the complaining about lack of sleep .