To tell new parents not to make a rod for their backs

[PenelopeChipShop]

I’ve thought about how to phrase this but I really want to post it. I just feel like i’ve made so many mistakes and I don’t want others to go through the same.

My DC are 5 (nearly 6) and 2 and neither are good sleepers. I didn’t sleep train either of them and was quite laid back/ attachment parent-ish about their sleep, believing all the relaxed people (lots of them on the munsnet sleep boards!) who said that children will sleep through when they’re ready, you won’t regret the cuddles, etc. I was confident in my choice and while I didn’t judge those who did sleep training, I thought it wasn’t for us.

Well almost 6 years of sleep deprivation have taken my youth, sanity, skin quality, patience and all my confidence in what I thought was the right path. It also isn’t an exaggeration to say that conflict over how to handle sleep issues played a huge part in ending my marriage.

I am now a LP to two children who still don’t sleep, ex H doesn’t have them overnight (though he has said he will ‘in future’ - I think this means when the little one is weaned off boob, which I do understand tbf) and every morning I wake up sandwiches between them, utterly exhausted, and angry because it takes all fucking evening to get them to bed. I have no energy or time for myself, all because I thought Dr Sears was right about traumatising children who are left to cry.

Well guess what, he is a man who has never actually breastfed every fucking night for hundreds of nights on end. So he can stuff his theories up his arse.

AIBU to tell new parents to get their kids used to self setting and to night wean them earlyish (6-12 months) so they don’t end up like me, ie a husk of their former selves.

I don't think sleep training would help. But you mention taking a long time to get them to sleep - it's worth making changes to the bedtime routine. Don't change everything at once, it perhaps look at adjusting times- getting one to bed a bit earlier (or both). Starting the actual bedtime before they are tired, can work wonders. Sometimes if you start too late they are whiny at teethbrushinng etc because they are already too tired, but then they overcome that and by the time you get them on the pillow they are awake and not sleepy at all.

@RedDwarves that's a ridiculous thing to assert. People do things differently and do what works for them, as a family.

I hate to break it to you but so much depends on nature and the child.

My twins followed the same routine every night of going in their beds awake. Now 12, one has always been an amazing sleeper. His twin did not sleep well for the first 7 years and is still a bad sleeper. They were exposed to the same environment and routine.

Don't beat yourself up because it all depends on the child.

I agree with you @PenelopeChipShop .

I sleep trained my DD and DS ... it did them no harm as toddlers to be sleep trained.

As older children now they go to bed fine and sleep through fine .

Some children will sleep through on their own though, and for some children sleep training won't work.

DS is a fantastic sleeper, always has been, I was pretty smug about my baby who even as a toddler had a story and a kiss then stayed in bed all night. Then when DS was 5 I had DD, at 9 and a half years old she still hasn't slept through, not even once. She does stay in her room and amuse herself quietly these days but that's quite a new thing, there were times I genuinely wondered if she was deliberately waiting for me to get comfy before bouncing into my bed and waking me.

And we co-sleep. Bedside cot for one and middle of the bed for the five year old- though she also sleeps in her bed nowadays too.
Co-sleeping actually saved my sanity and made me less tired. We didn't plan it but I wish we did it with DD1 from the start.

And actually i do think getting children into healthy sleep routines helps relationships hugely .

Yabu, as you have no idea whether ‘sleep training’ would have worked (horrible thing to do!, bloody train a child, who is so dependent on you to sleep (cry) all alone.

My dc are 8 and 4, both stil co sleep, and have both always had their own beds. We just chop and change! (I’m currently in my dd bed on my own, dh is in with dd and ds is on his own, but tomorrow night will be different again)

We have never had problems sleeping

Yanbu however as with all these things you will never know if the alternative would have worked. Its just a stick to beat yourself with.

Agree with you Op

I was a strict bedtime routine lover from early early days.

Bloody glad as dc always been amazing sleeper

I'm not going to comment one way or the other, I just came on to give you these  @PenelopeChipShop

Sleep deprivation is awful and I'm so sorry you're struggling. I do hope it gets better soon. X

I agree with you.

You don't have to 'sleep train' but you can start getting babies into good sleep habits from the start.
Don't feed to sleep.
But them down
Give them a chance to go to sleep my themselves
Good routines
Lots of sleep cues

I read that a baby is physically able, as long as full, to sleep thought by 8 months. I left it till nine and a half to be sure. From that point my children were offered water if they woke at night in case they were thirsty. Both stopped waking within a few days. I know it's not that easy and all babies are different but that's what worked for me. I also had their cots pulled up next to the bed so could put my hand on them and they knew I was there,

I agree op. Dd1 didn't sleep for first 6 months - she would scream all night unless feeding. It nearly broke me I am not exaggerating. She managed to sleep from about 9 months but hearing people having years of it makes my blood run cold for them. This musical bed thing some families have going on until kids quite old. Frankly couldn't bear it.

Dh and I also have our own rooms since he became unwell last year. It took a bit of getting used to after 25 years sharing a bed with him but I honestly think I sleep so much better on my own now and wonder why sharing a bed/room ever became a thing. I suppose in the first heady rush of love you never want to be apart and it helps with the conjugals but actually now I can’t Imagine wanting to share a room again with anyone ever. If anything ever happened to dh I’m pretty sure I’d stay alone forever.

And no milk at night after about 9 months. They don't need it, it disturbs sleep and is bad for their teeth.

I agree with you. A good night's sleep is important for their brain development. It is so frustrating to hear new parents repeat the same mistakes. I think that if you nip it in the bud early (not too early) then there are less tears over all.

Why not all just start in your bed op?....

Usually that’s how we go (minus 1 adult, as no room) the aduly then often gets up after a few hours and in to one of the kid’s beds, which are decent singles.

My 8yr old has no attachment issues and is happy on cub camps/sleepovers.

4yr old hasn’t had the chance yet, but once asleep she’d be fine.

Ds has always been a good sleeper and never fights sleep

I carried him around, feed on demand, co slept, until he was four he would fall asleep in my arms while I watched tv or read and thankfully has never woken up ridiculously early though up in time for school

I would love to put it down to my wonderful attachment style parenting but I think it’s just the way he is

My DH is about to take out 10 week old to co sleep and let me have a full night’s sleep. He had the baby over night on Friday and Saturday so I could go to a hen and has said he wants to do more overnights so we can both feel reasonable most of the time.

Our 5 year old didn’t sleep through reliably until he started nursery at 3. We were gentle with him, still are and I wouldn’t change a thing.

The 10 week old is sleeping 5/6 hour stints every 2 or 3 nights. I’ve done nothing different. He’s a different baby. His sleeping is nothing to do with us - if we could really make a difference there wouldn’t be all these sleep deprived parents haunting Mumsnet at 3am.

6.5 years of interrupted sleep here so you have my sympathy. I have not read the 6 pages of responses to your OP, but I would say that the problem is your lack of support (Martha Sears had her DH fully involved in nighttime parenting) rather than your DC who are just doing what young DC do.

I love co sleeping but it's really tough when my DH is away. I don't think BF is a reason your ex shouldn't do overnights (I work nights and BF). I'd personally insist on this- imagine all those uninterrupted nights you could enjoy that you have fully earned :)

YANBU

obviously all kids are different and some won’t ever need sleep “training” but I wonder if those are simply the ones that didn’t develop bad habits.

Some of my friends who had babies who never ever slept who didn’t sleep train or do anything to change this, now have 3-4 year olds that still never sleep.

From what I have read there had actually been very little “research” on the effects of sleep training.

I did some gentle sleep training and it was the best thing we did.

This thread just proves what i have always thought, some people think everyone is exactly the same. I had babies who never "wimpered" - they screamed themselves sick from almost the first moment they stirred. Sleep training would have had to have been cry-it-out becasue all of the "gentle" methods made them properly properly angry. But beside me, in my bed they learned to sleep eventually and now they sleep 10/12 hours quite happily and go to bed when they're tired amd put themselves to sleep.
My relationship didn't suffer because my husband had to sleep in the spare room (or on the blow up bed in our room when we had 2) the nights when the baby sharing our bed kicked him in the head once too often.
And i was exhasted. So so tired. But i learned to grab sleep when i could and i was a good mum even that tired.
Now, other people's babies fuss a bit but will settle themselves without adult intervention. Other people don't have spare beds for their husband's or can't get any sleep co-sleeping. Other people can't power nap for half an hour on the sofa while the kids are getting baths.
Giving advice if people ask is lovely. When i was told "you need to just stop going every wimper" or "you should ween - when my sister stopped breastfeeding her baby slept 14 hours straight without a wimper." I wanted to shake people. My babies weren't their babies, i was not them, everyone is different. Knowing that helps advice be useful and not patronising.

I think there are signs actually that you can look for that a man will be likely to be supportive which does include things like co-sleeping and feeding at night - whether they are supportive of you doing it or whether they work with you to find a solution that you're all happy with.

I certainly am not blaming anyone for not knowing/thinking about these things before DC, BTW - I certainly didn't! But with the benefit of hindsight, this is what I think you want to look out for:

• Doesn't believe he needs to control/dominate others (ever) - handles conflict non-aggressively.
• Willing to put others before himself at least some of the time
• Is good to you when you're ill
• Treats animals and/or other "inferiors" (waiting staff, employees, younger siblings) well/with empathy
• Doesn't let his own demons (e.g. past, mental health, insecurity) affect others negatively
• Discusses things even if they are hard. Doesn't shut off or brush off your concerns. Shares his concerns with you in a kind of "how can we solve this?" way, not an accusative way.
• Takes on his fair share of housework, emotional labour, finances. This might not be 50/50 in all cases but should feel fair to both. Prepared to discuss/adjust when this isn't fair.
• Encourages you, cares about your wellbeing, respects you, admires you, cares about the effects of his own actions on you (and others)
• Compensates for your weaknesses. Has weaknesses you find no worse than a mild inconvenience (so you don't mind compensating for them)
• Overall makes your life and any problems feel lighter and easier to cope with, not the opposite (bingo! Could sum up all of my past terrible relationships)
• Sees parenting as a shared project/goal/journey (insert twee metaphor here) rather than something YOU are doing which he's merely a supporting leg for - it needs to be a joint venture even if you're not taking on the same parts.

I'm going to sound very smug here. All four of mine were good sleepers from about 6 weeks old. However they hardly ever napped during the day even as babies, I think its down to the actual make up of the child, mine used to ask to go to bed because they were tired!