That many people believe they are pro choice but are not

[winterstail]

My understanding of pro choice is that you support a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy.

Many people claim to be pro choice but then express shock at the reason a woman chooses to terminate.

This isn't pro choice then, is it?

when you remove a woman's bodily autonomy/right to choose at a certain gestational point the result is forced birth.

But after a certain point, the question is only whether it will be giving birth to a live child or not. Obviously there are medical options available if the baby's health is not a consideration, but there is still a risk and impact on the mother's body through labour and delivery.

I think using abortions as your main form of contraception is selfish and expensive for the nhs. I have issues with that tbh but other than that I’m live and let live tbh.

@formerbabe sorry did I mis tag u? someone replied to my original comment saying nobody was asking for forced abortions. I could of sworn it was u. My bad if not
x

I think Takfujuimoto has very eloquently answered that point Olenna

Olennas the trouble with that is there are no certainties with any birth, until a foetus is born it is not considered and individual/person with rights.

idobelieveinfairies86

Oh maybe?! I'm totally confused at this point anyway

MightyMucks I think if someone wanted a late abortion because they are a nasty psychopath they would be the last person who should be parenting a newborn.

I think people need to be very careful when they say a fetus doesn't have a right to life...
Legally I can assure you that once the fetus is viable outside the womb (so 24 weeks approx) then the fetus does have rights ie if some1 where to cause that fetus to die unlawfully they can be done for child destruction.

Also I don't think any1 who wants the legal cut off to be lowered is talking about the medical reasons (which I believe is still 28 weeks) but the other limit for non medical grounds which is currently 24 weeks.

Given that the majority of 'contraceptive' abortions are early ones, what about it hacks people off? Late term I can understand, but early ones seem totally uncontroversial to me. Are those people coming at it from a financial/burden to medical care standpoint?

I had a termination in my mid twenties simply because I wasn't ready to be a mother and feel zero shame or regret.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow not always.
The only reason I found out at 8 weeks I'm pregnant is because I'm a paranoid tester. Even now,with contraception I still test, every couple of months just in case.
I've had years with no periods, 3 months wouldn't even register.
Add to that someone being overweight and a fairly easy/symptomless pregnancy and no you don't always know early enough to get things in order. Not to mention the hoops women have to go through, doctor appts availability etc.

And then we have the 20 week scan,five weeks later than what you agree with . It's only then that serious problems CAN be identified,and even so some things become apparent later.

If I ask myself the question whether there is any situation in which I could ever agree with forced birth the answer is no.

But in late stage abortions the woman would have to go through childbirth anyway so I don't really understand what you mean about forced birth, there would be no alternative to childbirth it's the only way to get the baby/foetus out.

Takfujuimoto, wasn't there a case brought a few years ago against a woman who drank heavily throughout pregnancy, so her baby was born with foetal alcohol syndrome? I dont think she was convicted, but the fact that the case got to court suggests that a foetus does have some rights in law? I dont know though, I just remember seeing the case reported and being shocked.

Regarding the method of late stage abortions, again I could be wrong but isn't there a process where they can dismember the foetus with implements in utero and then somehow get the pieces out, to avoid labour?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30327893

Ah, here it is - but I see they did dismiss the case on grounds a foetus is not a person. So as you were

I think using abortions as your main form of contraception is selfish and expensive for the nhs

Who does this?

It’s so difficult. I didn’t discover my last pregnancy until I was 20 weeks because I was suffering from heavy ‘periods’ and receiving treatment for it. Of course by 20 weeks I showed so took a test and to my utter horror I was pregnant and the scan showed I was really far gone.

For me there was no choice when I saw my fully formed baby and I love her deeply now she is here. However, I nearly lost my life having her and nearly left my other DC without a mother. I could never judge another woman for making a different choice to me. Children don’t just deserve any old life, they deserve a good life and being born to people who can’t look after them is no life at all.

Pro Choice with limitations is just that

So no not really Pro Choice

No one wants women and to have late terminations but I have to support that choice over what I feel comfortable with

Respecting someone's right to do something is not the same as respecting their decision to do it. I respect a woman's right to terminate. I would never do anything to interfere with that and would defend it is I saw others threatening it. But I judge women who chose to terminate for frivolous reasons like the baby not being the sex that they wanted (obviously I am not talking about situations where women would suffer domestic violence if the child was the 'wrong' sex as that is not frivolous).

the trouble with that is there are no certainties with any birth, until a foetus is born it is not considered and individual/person with rights

Trouble with what? Sorry, I'm confused

I should have tagged @Takfujuimoto in my last post

@tot life starts legally at birth and end when there is no cerebral function.

I think using abortions as your main form of contraception is selfish and expensive for the nhs

Such a disingenuous argument. Fwiw, I think the following things are selfish and expensive for the NHS...

Driving badly
Smoking
Drinking
Extreme sports
Sunbathing

Tot yes there are different methods used and abortion pills are used for first trimester primarily or D&C then within the second trimester they use D&E, they can do this to term really but the women I know who have had late term terminations for medical reasons had essentially had a still birth.

You are sedated or have a GA for a D&E which is a medical procedure far removed from any similarity to giving birth to a live baby Ken

Tot that was an upsetting case and whilst legally I agree 100% on the decision I would say that morally there should be a case for assessing the parenting abilities post birth.

I echo what others say, as early as possible, as late as necessary. Women should be able to choose whether they want to continue their pregnancy. Women are not just choosing to have abortions at 23 weeks because they can’t be arsed to have a baby- even if the reasons are not obvious there will be reasons.

Olennas I'm not sure if I got the eight gist of your post, " I had a premature baby who was born at 35 weeks perfectly able to survive on his own without medical intervention. I can't support the abortion of a baby to term simply because the mother is exercising bodily autonomy and doesn't wish to gestate it any longer. "
But the point I was trying to make was that you can not with 100% certainty say that any pregnancy up to term will result in a live birth and also until a foetus is born it is not considered a separate entity with its own rights to remain gestating against the rights of its host/ mother.

I think using abortions as your main form of contraception is selfish and expensive for the nhs

How on earth can you use abortion as a contraceptive? It's technically impossible. It is a form of birth control, yes, but the scientists still haven't managed to find out how it prevents conception.