To think entry requirements to be a teacher should be higher

[totteringlump]

AIBU to think too many teachers (obviously not all) don’t have particularly good qualifications themselves and so struggle to teach the syllabus to the class? People are able to pass but not excel and these teachers often struggle to advise students about gaining entry to Oxbridge and other places plus about high paid careers.

If students don’t have this advice at home they cannot know.

but presumably not a DipCG

I love the way to just completely dismissed me and my comments OP, well done.

I can just imagine what kind of teacher you are.

No. And I didn’t go to oxbridge - I wasn’t clever enough!

But assuming that teaching takes “empathy” and nothing more devalues it. At the heart of it, I’m teaching a subject and if I don’t understand it myself, how can my students be expected to?

I didn’t dismiss it. You listed your qualifications, and I said the thread isn’t about you. It isn’t. Defensiveness means important subjects can be addressed because individuals take them personally.

I actually think qualification needed should be based on age of child you are teaching.

I actually never used to believe there were people out there ignorant enough to think this, but then I read comments like this.

@tottering a sixteen year old need advice should be seeking advice and guidance from a career guidance specialist. Teachers are NOT well placed to give careers advice ( in the main )

It's a non point really to say that teachers don't need degrees. Sure, in the past they didn't, but the standard of person going into teaching - and indeed, many careers including secretarial work - was much higher.

Now there has been grade inflation so that someone with School Certificate in 1950 is equivalent to someone with a 2:1 degree nowadays.

And of course there is the thorny issue of the establishment a degree is gained from. Now, if someone is doing a vocational-type subject (even Golf Studies!) at a newer place, then fine. But if someone has an English degree from JustFoundedLastWeek University, then it smacks to me of a person who was unable to get into anywhere better and therefore is not very good at their subject. Plus the level of work shockingly low at some of these places. Seen it with my own eyes.

I only thought it was a 2:1 as I was looking recently at what you needed to do schools direct, teach first etc. I am actually surprised to learn you can get into these with less

Being a fucking teacher (PSHE) tends to be one of the subjects where there is least academic evidence and anyone with a gap on the timetable is dumped in

Re the gap between rich and poor, I presume you’re referring to the difference between private and state schools? A colleague sent her son to a private school and needed up tutoring him-plus plenty of his peers-through her specialist subject. The teacher at the private school to quote her was ‘crap’.

My state school is in the top 20% of schools in the country. I don’t think the teachers’ unis are particularly relevant. Most of us did not attend red brick unis.

There’s a dearth of teachers. I got a new job recently and still look at adverts just to annoy myself! There are multiple repeated ads for the same jobs which I saw when deciding where to apply for.

Making entry requirements higher is not the way forward. I re-did my A level last year because my original grade was poor and it’s a hard one to answer when the kids ask for my grade. This did not reflect anything bar my lack of motivation at sixth form. My subject knowledge is extremely good, I dropped barely any points and got an A*. A colleague is doing his A level again this year for the same reason.

But then I do have a FIRST

There is a mixture of levels of intelligence amongst the staff I have worked with, just as there is on mumsnet. I have zero idea what level of degree any of them have and cannot imagine any circumstances (other than recruitment) that would result in me knowing.

I haven't RTFT because I just don't have the time, but I have to agree with the OP.

When I did my Primary Ed degree, followed by a PGCE, I was shocked by the appalling standards of basic grammar, spelling and mathematical skills of some of the other trainees. The literacy and numeracy tests are incredibly easy to pass (as they are set at a Year 6 level) and my 9 year old was able to score higher on the practice tests than some of the trainees I did my qualification with.

There was also a real lack of how to actually be around children. Some of the trainees just had absolutely no idea and after just a couple of teaching practices, were able to become fully qualified.

Obviously not all teachers are like this, but the standards of language skills actually shocked me.

I've jointly observed lessons with non specialists, who are carried away with the engagement and resources and the gloss, but miss the developing misconceptions, the kids' questions being slightly wrongly answered because the teacher has learned for that lesson but has no depth or breadth of knowledge. This is just as big a problem at KS3 as KS4 and A level because misconceptions are bloody hard to unravel. The best teachers are the ones with whom the kids learn best.

I also think at a level that if you were bright and motivated you could teach yourself to get A Grades - or the teacher could just read out of a book, provide info on the syllabus, give you past papers and Mark your work. They don't need much knowledge o the subject, only what the pupil must learn to write about.

Nevertheless a teacher must have a PASSION for the subject so I'd expect a 2:1!!!

Didn't expect that bombshell of you being a teacher

@ghostys 😂 I'd bet money on no DipCG but probably doesn't stop her giving out careers advice

But how academic do you have to be to understand one subject to A* standard, when it’s your profession.

For sure you shouldn’t teach if you can’t. But I’d guess anyone who got a C/D when doing the a level themselves could get themselves up to standard after teaching for a couple of years.

Of course you don't just need empathy to be a good teacher. Not having a top degree doesn't necessarily mean you're a bit dim but lovely and 'down wid da kids'! There might be all sorts of reasons someone didn't get a 2:1 or above. As long as they are able to deliver the curriculum and have the other attributes necessary for teaching, then what does it matter. Some of the best teachers I've ever known have also been the least academically qualified.

I currently teach some primary Spanish. I've never had a Spanish lesson in my life, but I do have 20 odd years' MFL teaching experience I still reckon I do a much better job than someone who is totally fluent but has no MFL teaching experience. My degree taught me nothing about how to teach other people languages.

YABVVVVVU

Actually I agree OP but it's a consequence of relatively low wages and poor conditions.

Teaching isn’t the place for towering intellects. What’s needed is the power to inspire students to achieve their full potential in whatever field they choose. Completely different skill set.

I don’t necessarily think what makes a good teacher is amazing exams results.

My 2 friends who are teachers love it. Their pay is pretty good but maybe that’s cause they’re in their 30s & are in London.

When I did my Primary Ed degree, followed by a PGCE, I was shocked by the appalling standards of basic grammar, spelling and mathematical skills of some of the other trainees. People can excel at their subject and still lack basic skills. I wouldn't expect a First Class English graduate to necessarily have better maths skills than a 3rd class English graduate, nor would I expect a first class maths graduate to necessarily have good standards of grammar.

Grammar and spelling standards are declining because they are no longer valued so highly by society. In mumsnet and other on-line forums you are shouted down if you point out mistakes, and called names like "grammar nazi". Glossy brochures designed to show off big organisations can have quite glaring mistakes - "loose" instead of "lose", confusion between principle/principal, practice/practise - and grammatical errors like "sentences" without an active verb. Hardly surprising if teachers show the same lack of knowledge.