To think that Brownies should admit children fairly?

[lyracostello]

I live in a small Home Counties town that people move to from London to raise their kids. We moved here 4 years ago and I put my dds names down for Brownies. Dd turned 7 over the Easter holidays, and I was hoping that she would be able to start Brownies, but she hasn’t been offered a place yet.

Yesterday I asked a few other mums in DD’s class whether their daughters were starting Brownies, and one of them said yes. I asked her how long ago she’d put her DD’s name down and she said 2 years ago! So my daughter should have been higher up the list than hers.

When I pointed this out to her, and asked how it was possible, she reluctantly said she was friends with and had gone to school and church with the woman who is Tawny Owl, and they go to the same church still, and the Tawny Owl had made sure her dd got a place. She said it was really important to her that her dd was a member of that brownie pack as she had been a member when she was a child.

I spoke to a few other mothers and they said that the brownie pack seems to largely ignore the order on the waiting list, and gives out places based on whether you go to the Anglican Church (that the leader goes to and where the Brownies meet) and if your parents grew up in the town, as most of the leaders did.

AIBU to think this is completely wrong? The Brownies are a public organisation, they shouldn’t have such an unfair, discriminatory system. Children whose families are from the town, or who go to the church, should not have priority over children whose families have just moved here and don’t go to that church.

It sounds like your town could do with an extra brownie pack. Why don't you start one?

I can see this is frustrating but brownies is run by unpaid volunteers, so I'm reluctant to criticise too much.

YANBU but such is life 🤷🏻‍♀️

Find the details of the district or division commissioner. They shouldn’t be ignoring the list like that.

I bet if you volunteered to be a leader a place would be found for your dd

I was just about to suggest you start an alternative pack that doesn’t have church attendance as an entry requirement! Sounds like people are fed up with the existing order of things.

Yep, without a doubt, if you offer to be a regular unit helper your daughter would get a placd to start straightaway. Lack of leaders everywhere, so this is usual policy. You can also transfer over to another pack if possible and the waiting time is still taken into account.

You're nbu but it's similar where I live, so over subscribed that the only way a newcomer can get in is if a parent volunteers - which I think is kinda defeating the purpose, I'm trying to get my kids to do something independently! We were lucky - city area so we found another group which is lovely. Sorry I can't be of more help, just to say you're not alone!

Our group goes by the list, but does admit girls if the mum is a helper, as the mum couldn't help if the child wasn't able to come......

As someone from a similar sort of town, I can understand why, if the Brownie pack leaders are all from that town - and hardly any newcomer parents volunteer to help - why they would want to give places to children whose parents are from the town.

Yes, overall you aren't BU but I can see it from the leader' point of view, too. Our church gives free use of its premises and facilities to the uniformed organisations that meet there. Once a month in term time there is a short family service with a colour party and the number of children who turn up is usually tiny. Similarly, a fair few parents use Brownies as something to send the children to unless they get a better off which means numbers can fluctuate wildly and there are girls taking up a space who are only using it half the time. Unfortunately, it could be that Tawny just wanted to give a place to someone she knew would appreciate it and be duly involved. I'm sure you would be too so it does seem unfair on your daughter.

Can I just say that a) yes, Brown Owl should definitely follow the list and it might be worth having a word with someone higher up in the oerganization but b) it's very common for parents who are able to commit to helping on a regular basis to get a place for their child, because it also means that they can admit a few more from the list because of extra helpers. So on the surface unfair, but on closer inspection not.

It sounds unfair, but I'm surprised the other mother told you the truth. Usually if people know they've queue-jumped they keep their mouths shut 😁

As a leader, yes, that is an unfair system. Especially if you have not been approached with an "If you can volunteer then we can accept your dd as we need extra adults".

However, are you sure the child's birthday is also not before your DD's?

My list is operated on age order first and then length of time. So a child who turns of age first but joined the list after another would get a place first. This way I feel I get more girls into guiding than just holding it by time on list. I'd end up ignoring some girls completely and they'd never get a space.

There should be an option to message your selected unit. Remove all emotion and email with a 'now dd is 7, do they have a rough idea of when she might join' to see what reply you get.

Do brownies still promise "to do [their] duty to God"?
I can see why it would be okay to prioritise those attending church if that is still the case.
But that issue aside, it should be in the order of the sign-ups, yes.

It does seem a little off, but as PP's have said if you don't like it you could always start your own group.

Is could be down to dob though - my DD appeared to queue jump as when we enquired about a place she had just turned 7 and no one on the waiting list was 7 yet, so technically she could have taken the last place from someone who had been on the list since birth.

On the face of it, it sounds very unfair. Children should be allocated places according to the list. But the list may be age order, not just length of time on it. Also, priority is sometimes given to girls who are moving up from Rainbows. It is possible that either of these things have happened in this case?

The leader must also be in charge of the waiting list for the district. It wouldn't be possible to have children jumping the list here as its all run on a central system, and the person dealing with admissions and the waiting list sends out the offers.

The individual unit leaders have no sway over who does and doesn't join their unit.

If you've been on the list for 4 years without update there's a possibility that somehow you've dropped off of the list. I would email the contact you have and check where your daughter is on the list. (i'm a rainbows leader)

it's my God.

ring the Unit and ask where your DD is on list

YANBU. Brownies is clique, though
Its been like that for years. It was exactly the same when I used to go as a kid. As young as I was i felt excluded. I wouldn't send a flea of a rat there. I was extremely shy as a child and too scared to join in or contribute. However I remember trying to speak there once and the "brown owl" said. Oh look girls it's speaks". Got out of your mood have you"

Thanks, Kendal!

How on earth do people think to put their children's names down for stuff years ahead?
Genuine question by the way, not being goady. Obviously my kids are lucky, DS asked to go to beavers, I messaged the leader and he joined the same night. It didn't occur to me when he was 1and 3/4 he might fancy joining beavers when he was 5 and 3/4.

@thehumanmothboy Nope we not longer mention God in the Promise.

I promise that I will do my best, to be true to myself and develop my beliefs, to serve the Queen and my community, to help other people and to keep the (Brownie) Guide Law

There's a simpler version for Rainbows . .

The Promise used to by 'do my duty to God', then changed to 'my God', and now has a more oblique reference to faith:

I promise that I will do my best, to be true to myself and develop my beliefs, to serve the Queen and my community, to help other people and to keep the (Brownie) Guide Law.

There is no formal link between the Church of England and the Girl Guides but as in the situation described by OP it's often the case that people who are active with their church and community are also the kind of people who are willing to volunteer to run Brownies, Guides, Beavers etc. A very large proportion of units meet in church halls and premises so there's a further informal link there.