To think that Brownies should admit children fairly?

[lyracostello]

I live in a small Home Counties town that people move to from London to raise their kids. We moved here 4 years ago and I put my dds names down for Brownies. Dd turned 7 over the Easter holidays, and I was hoping that she would be able to start Brownies, but she hasn’t been offered a place yet.

Yesterday I asked a few other mums in DD’s class whether their daughters were starting Brownies, and one of them said yes. I asked her how long ago she’d put her DD’s name down and she said 2 years ago! So my daughter should have been higher up the list than hers.

When I pointed this out to her, and asked how it was possible, she reluctantly said she was friends with and had gone to school and church with the woman who is Tawny Owl, and they go to the same church still, and the Tawny Owl had made sure her dd got a place. She said it was really important to her that her dd was a member of that brownie pack as she had been a member when she was a child.

I spoke to a few other mothers and they said that the brownie pack seems to largely ignore the order on the waiting list, and gives out places based on whether you go to the Anglican Church (that the leader goes to and where the Brownies meet) and if your parents grew up in the town, as most of the leaders did.

AIBU to think this is completely wrong? The Brownies are a public organisation, they shouldn’t have such an unfair, discriminatory system. Children whose families are from the town, or who go to the church, should not have priority over children whose families have just moved here and don’t go to that church.

Volunteer and you will get a place around here. It doesn’t always have to be at meetings ether as I have an ‘admin’ role as I am st work when meetings are on. Maybe it is unfair but it’s run by volunteers. Accepting those that go to church though does go against the spirit of it though I think.

How many people with Brownie ages daughters do you think are going to volunteer to run a Brownie group if there is not going to place for their daughter and they are going to have to arrange childcare! Be reasonable. It's not at all the same thing as giving school volunteer children a head start in the sack race!

The guidance for running a waiting list (we are allowed to use discretion but have to be able to justify the decision) is: transfers from within GGUK (either moving into area or moving up from Rainbows), then girls in age order; it is acknowledged that there are not as many spaces as girls who want to attend so going in age order does give as many girls as possible a chance of a place at some stage.
Sadly, time on the list does not affect the availability of a place.

Also: as a leader I spend time EVERY term chasing parents who have changed their email/phone since registering their daughter years before. Sometimes I just cannot make contact/they get the message but never acknowledge or reply. Call the Leader: it may be that your daughter does have a place but they couldn't get in touch for some reason. It's completely reasonable for you to contact the county office and ask.

“What about the kids who have parents with heavy work loads- or a dozen other kids? Why should that child be penalised for not having a parent to volunteer?“

They aren’t being penalized. They will get a place sooner because a parent who can volunteer gets a slot for their child-aka childcare while they do it. Yes, their child might jump the queue but the extra pair of hands creates more spaces.

Join the scouts instead

Op, you could phone up to enquire where you are on the waiting list and also ask how the list is organised and prioritised.

Most Units will have criteria which aren't purely when you signed up. Examples which might give you priority include having a sibling in the unit, becoming involved as a parent (they are desperate for volunteers - round here there was a 5 year waiting list for Scouts and the best way to get a place if you hadn't got your act together soon enough, was for a parent to become a leader - seems fair to be honest). Sometimes being involved with the Church gives you a bit of a leg up, as can going to certain schools. Another thing can be age - sometimes, a boy or girl who would only have a year or so in the organisation might be prioritised over someone who will still have several years, even if they have to wait another 6 months,

Quite why the people you know got in, might not be entirely clear. It might not be 'knowing the Brown Owl' but something else....the parent might not even know why they got the place when they did.

Having criteria is fine - they are a voluntary movement which can be over-subscribed and need some way of managing their lists. These methods should be transparent though - if you ask, you will be told how the criteria are applied - but you may well have to ask.

As with most things, it's best to ask the person running the organisation, rather than rely on half-info from others - simply deciding it's unfair and you've been discriminated against and there is nepotism going on is a bit daft. All you need to do is ring and enquire where DD is on list, how criteria are applied and how long she is likely to have to wait. Being friendly and cheerful might help too- if you sound like a moany parent who is complaining before even starting, they might not feel so keen to promote your DD!

And lastly, ringing every few months to check place on list is worth doing. it shows you are seruous about wanting a place....lots of those who put their names down ages ago might not be interested any more for all kinds of reasons. These are not schools operating a strict admissions policy, so reminding them (in a friendly way) of your DD still being really keen probably helps.

And yes, offer help - think of the hours of voluntary work going into this. Even if you can only offer once a term,nit will be appreciated.

There are some real miseries out there. Despite these Guide and Scout leaders giving up hours of time, sometimes weeks of their holidays for camps,many often doing it for 20+ years, some people just can't wait to moan.
-people moan about the waiting list

• they moan about being asked to get uniform
• they moan about the subs
• they moan about connections with the Church

-they moan about the activities provided and the trips

I think that in some people's minds, Guides and Scouts is an entitlement, like state education. People forget that it isn't and that the people running it are human.

Many units are hugely struggling for volunteers - those running them can be pretty old - creates further moaning about old leaders....but rarely anything very constructive.

lyra - there are two groups who get priority; those who have parents who are leaders/assistant leaders and children who have been rainbows previously.
There are also units who only take from a certain area - so we only have one unit in our village and therefore we only take children from our village or the neighbouring one that doesn't have one.

With the rest of our waiting list is done on a combination of registration date and birth date - we do not have a single child in our village who attends Brownies who has only just turned 7.

Remember everyone who runs a guiding group is a volunteer.

speakout

I’d agree if the organisation was swimming in volunteer leaders. Alas, it is very rare that a volunteer comes in without an ulterior Motive of some kind.

Usually either to get a child in, or volunteering for CV purposes. Given that the biggest cause of packs folding is lack of leaders not lack of children, i think it is the only way.

@speakout - your counter argument is silly.

Think of the practicalities of this. If a parent volunteers, their child gets a place, as do say 5 others, now the adult ratio has increased. That parent isn't going to volunteer if their child hasn't got a place are they?
The reality is, if there's no perks for volunteers, there'll be no volunteers, or very few, and thus less brownies.

jedenfalls but you are trying to suggest that it is the motives of the volunteers that are questionable.

This favouritism is the creation of the organisation.

I suspect the girlguiding UK would take a dim view of this practice.

“This favouritism is the creation of the organisation.”

This “favouritism” is a pragmatic solution to the chronic shortage of volunteers!

“I suspect the girlguiding UK would take a dim view of this practice.”

Nope.

All units must be different here, central Scotland you can’t go on the list until you’re 4 for rainbows 5 for beavers. Places are then given out in order of age regardless of when you went on the list. Beavers it’s first come first served.

If they did take a dim view, it'd be the start of their demise.

*“I suspect the girlguiding UK would take a dim view of this practice.”

Nope.*

I have girlguiding UK details of this thread and await a reply with interest.

I volunteered when ds wanted to join beavers and he went straight to the top of the list

Speakout- how do you suggest we get volunteers? I’d love to have all your ideas.

Because I can't tell you how much I want to stop.......

www.girlguiding.org.uk/globalassets/docs-and-resources/membership-administration/bestpracticeguidelinesforwaitingtotransferandwaitingtojoin.pdf
For new members there are best practice guidelines to consider:  Time on the waiting list – Look at the length of time that someone has been on the waiting list. This should be based on the registration date of the enquiry on Join Us (online system). 
Age of the girls - We want every girl to have the chance to experience the guiding programme and so priority should be given to older girls. 
Special circumstances - Try and recognise special situations and work with all parties to accommodate them. E.g. Where an older sibling is already a member or has been a member of the unit this should be discussed.
This is not an exhaustive list and so potential new members should be reviewed on a case by case basis.

Bertrand I go to my slimming club while DD is at Guides. The club only meets this one night per week, so I can't swap nights. But I'd love to volunteer for Guides. I've emailed the leader to say I'll happily do admin at home, or help at weekends etc. But she hasn't replied - I hope she doesn't think I'm making up excuses then offering a feeble 'I'll help if you tell me what to do'. Can you suggest something I can offer that she can't refuse?

Giving preference by faith is worrying. Op has made it very clear preference is church based not who volunteers. I thought it was now "my god" and there was no preference. Why should kids of the Anglian Faith get preference over say Muslims,agnostics etc?

If that is the way the movement actually does select they need to own up to it.

I'm glad the OP wants her DD to join the Brownies. If there is preference to church members if it is a church group, then it should have been clear from the outset.