To think that Brownies should admit children fairly?

[lyracostello]

I live in a small Home Counties town that people move to from London to raise their kids. We moved here 4 years ago and I put my dds names down for Brownies. Dd turned 7 over the Easter holidays, and I was hoping that she would be able to start Brownies, but she hasn’t been offered a place yet.

Yesterday I asked a few other mums in DD’s class whether their daughters were starting Brownies, and one of them said yes. I asked her how long ago she’d put her DD’s name down and she said 2 years ago! So my daughter should have been higher up the list than hers.

When I pointed this out to her, and asked how it was possible, she reluctantly said she was friends with and had gone to school and church with the woman who is Tawny Owl, and they go to the same church still, and the Tawny Owl had made sure her dd got a place. She said it was really important to her that her dd was a member of that brownie pack as she had been a member when she was a child.

I spoke to a few other mothers and they said that the brownie pack seems to largely ignore the order on the waiting list, and gives out places based on whether you go to the Anglican Church (that the leader goes to and where the Brownies meet) and if your parents grew up in the town, as most of the leaders did.

AIBU to think this is completely wrong? The Brownies are a public organisation, they shouldn’t have such an unfair, discriminatory system. Children whose families are from the town, or who go to the church, should not have priority over children whose families have just moved here and don’t go to that church.

@Notso, in my case I knew already I wanted dd to join rainbows so did the research as to how to get her on a waiting list when she was young. But I was a brownie and Guide way back so my interest in the movement was already there.

As a parent I suggest guiding and scouting to parents when they ask 'what clubs are there' for their child. So they become aware. Shared knowledge :)

It's a parochial mindset I am afraid!

It is same in the town where I live. I was asked if I was from here when I moved here , i replied yes I was born in this County thanks

Personally I would start another group or find a more 'open-minded' activity.

Yep - go and volunteer at a Brownie pack, then look at getting your leader qualification and open your own unit.

We have 'rules' for admissions for our Guide Unit - if you are a Brownie, you get priority, even more so if your are a linked Borwnie, regardless of how long you've been on the list for

Eg. I run 4th Binaryville Guides - priority goes:

4th Binaryville Brownies
1st-3rd Binaryville Brownies
non-guiding waiting list by length

YANBU

This is - speaking as a Girlguiding volunteer who is currently very much enjoying "just" running Brownies, but has previously held County, Region & National appointments - completely unacceptable behaviour.

I have, once or twice, deferred the start of a just-turned-7yo by up to a term to allow a 9yo further down the list to join the Unit; but we are also a Unit who will "stretch" (i.e. run at over capacity for a bit) to try to ensure as many girls as [is safely] possible get to enjoy being part of Girlguiding.

Are there any other Brownie Units nearby? You need to contact a local Commissioner (the details for the County Commissioner for your area, at least, will be available online) to make them aware of what is happening in the Unit with regard to the waiting list (& they need to sort it before a less drama-minded parent sadfaces the local paper over finding themselves victim of "Brownie Waiting List Scandal"). The Commissioner should be able to find your DD a place in another local Unit; or, if they've the wit to tell the Leaders it's been noticed after the update to Go! last year that girls on their waiting list are moving into the Unit in a very irregular fashion & that has to stop, your DD should get a place there...

My Unit is a Catholic one (though not a closed one [one that takes only Catholic girls] - the Guide one is meant to be, but instead takes Catholic girls as priority) & - while that actually seems to mean parents often assume we're only for Catholics - I'd NEVER use religion as a way of sifting the waiting list. Not that it'd do much, almost all the girls are Catholic, but even so... it would just never occur to me... I'm absolutely staggered.

This behaviour honestly isn't normal OP - Units do sometimes wiggle things to let an older girl join; or to prioritise the transfer of an existing Brownie who's just moved to the area; or the daughter of a volunteer. This nonsense, though, is totally unacceptable, & wants knocking on the head. (Am amazed they've been getting away with it so long!)

Awwlookatmybabyspider

That just sounds like a shit Brownie Pack - not all packs are that unwelcoming!

The same happened 20 years ago when my son was on the waiting list for Beavers, a mum who had been at the same school as the kids told me she was asked to let her son join Beavers but my son on the waiting list didn't get a place. We joined a different group and I had to become a leader to get him in. It is unfair but don't know what the answer is.

When I was a leader we used a waiting list properly.

It depends on whether the pack is sponsored by the church they meet in at all. My Rainbow unit is open sponsored by the church where we meet. This means that we don't pay any rent for our meeting hall, and have access to storage and all facilities. In return, we agree to prioritise "church family" when it comes to admitting new starters - although anyone is free to join our waiting list.

I also don't admit purely on how long children have been on the list - I sometimes let an already 6 year old start, knowing they'll only have a term or two before they go to Brownies.

Brownies should also prioritise existing members, either who are moving up from Rainbows, or who move in from out of the area.

Were the other girls previously Rainbows? They would have been given priority for that reason.

But I agree with looking at other packs. It tends to happen that some packs are massively oversubscribed, whereas some other perfectly excellent unit somewhere fairly close by is actively recruiting!

If the pack is so interlinked with the church, and you're not, it may not be the best unit for you anyway.

Well I'd start by sending an innocent but startled email to the leader saying how confused you are that someone who has been on the waiting list for far less time has been admitted ahead of your daughter...asking if its possible her name had been lost.

See what happens....

They might acknowledge the unfairness and get your DD in asap.

In my area this probably could have happened say 10 years ago,when there was a lot of 'you know Jean who lives in the house next to the park,she takes the brownies'. And to be honest it could be a bit 'who you know'
Now all the names have to be entered centrally and places are allocated ,The individual leaders have no real say as to who they get.

Still a bit open to 'abuse' as some leaders might say hey want to take their friend's child,and the waiting list person might acede to this .

Leaders and helpers getting their own kids in is pretty standard and I think ok, indeed necessary

It is not a strict time on list basis .
Rainbows normally get priority ,as generally the feeling is that we want to keep our existing members.

And there can be girls on the list who have been on it for years,but are not yet the correct age,so somone might get a space if they are the right age ,even though they have been on the list longest.That can seem unfair,but better than having spaces unfilled

In our area if you do not get into Rainbows you will find it very difficult to get into Brownies.We essentially need another pack at least to meet the demand.Could you organise your own group

I stated a new group 12 yeas ago so my DD could go to brownies.But that's me if I want something for my DC I get on and do whatever have to do

I would start by asking if she is getting a space .If not perhaps mention you have heard of girls getting in who have not been on the list for as long and see what she says.If not satisfied ask for the District Commissioner's details

But essentially I am not sure how far you can push it,you say in your OP that Brownies are a public organisation,but it is not school.It is a voluntary organisation

YANBU but don't cite this when / if you complain:

The Brownies are a public organisation, they shouldn’t have such an unfair, discriminatory system.

Girl Guides UK are not a public organisation - they don't receive public funding.

I understand your frustration OP and that is definitely not fair, but I can assure you the majority of units do their best to have as many girls as possible and allocate fairly. Our Rainbows feed up to us and the rest is on a name put down first. Unfortunately we are heavily oversubscribed to the point where 2 more units could open in our small town and they would still be full. Ultimately, some girls miss out and there is nothing we can do about it. One of our leaders has a DD in our pack and she had to stay at rainbows until a place becomes available.

This exact thing happened to me when I was a child. My mum complained to the district commissioner, who upheld the complaint. I was then offered a place at that Brownie pack, or a choice of 4 others across the town. I went elsewhere.

I'd recommend you follow a similar course of action.

That shouldn't be happening. I was a Brown Owl and a Guider for many years and we had no affiliation with a church.

I'd suggest a friendly email to the leader to ask what the allocation policy is

I thought Brownies were affiliated with the CoFE (I remember "Church Parade" once a month as a Brownie & a Guide). So of course, regular church attendees would have priority.

Brownies aren't a "public organisation." It's run by volunteers and is not the kind of service organisation you seem to think it is.

Sounds about normal tbh.

Why dont you put her down for Cubs? They do more interesting things anyway.

I've been in Guiding for 28 years and have never heard of a church association so if there is, it's kept pretty quiet! As a child, we had to say Grace when away camping and we sung a God song at the end of meetings but we don't do that any more.

I'd just offer to volunteer.
I think it's fair enough that children of volunteers get moved up the list.
With no volunteers, there'd be no pack.

Never occurred to me to put DD on a waiting list. There are lots of other extra curricular activities. I wouldn't want DD going to something so clique.

*I'd just offer to volunteer.
I think it's fair enough that children of volunteers get moved up the list.
With no volunteers, there'd be no pack.8

You think that is a good ethos? I think that's a pretty shit attitude

What about the kids who have parents with heavy work loads- or a dozen other kids? Why should that child be penalised for not having a parent to volunteer?

Would you suggest the same principle be applied to schools?

Many primary schools rely a lot on volunteers to keep the school running, raise funds, look after the library, cover books, sort out materials.

Maybe the kids of these school volunteers should be put first in the lunch queue or given a few metres start at sports day?

Op you have had a lucky break.

There is actually very little guidance given by Guiding UK in exactly how admissions should be done. But it's pretty obvious that it shouldn't be based on personal connections and their should be some fair system. I don't know what the rules are on prioritising church members where there is a link.

I run the waiting lists for Rainbows, Brownies and Guides locally. Leaders' children get priority and we have a reciprocal arrangement with Scouts. Then girls moving from section to section, or from another unit.

We used to otherwise just go by time on the list but it doesn't really work. For example, we didn't think it was fair that some girls started the moment they turned 5 while others never got a turn. Or we would end up with a large year group taking up loads of places. Hardly anyone gets a place in the next year. Then the big year leaves and we actually have empty spaces for a while with no takers. Then the cycle repeats.

So I basically run a separate waiting list and Max number for each year group which determines who will get a place. And age determines when those girls take their place. Do it might look like some girls are queue jumping as it doesn't just go by time on list but there is a system. So check first.

A lucky break? Why's that?

I've gained a massive amount from the 28 I've been involved in the Association.

What about the kids who have parents with heavy work loads- or a dozen other kids? Why should that child be penalised for not having a parent to volunteer?

Oh ffs that child isn't being penalised - someone else is just being rewarded.

Or are you someone that thinks when Emily gets star of the week the other 29 kids have been penalised?

For the record most guide and scout leaders I know have several children and full time demanding jobs. Some are single parents.

And we're talking about an extra curricular activity led by volunteers, not education or anything else to which there is a statutory entitlement.