AIBU to not want to work that hard

[Greentomato82]

Not about SAHM / WOHM but about work generally, men and women alike, DC or no DC. Reading a lot of threads on here people often say they work mainly because they 'want' to work and that it's an important part of their identity etc. I know that some jobs are a real vocation, and obviously we all need money, but surely lots of jobs are a bit meh really and with a lottery win most of us would give it up or at least treat it as more of a hobby? I just seem to hear this more and more, lots about career building and ambition. Frankly I am not going to change the word any time soon and that suits me just fine. I want to rebel a bit and enjoy life. We generally work at least 9-5, 5 days a week for decades to pay the mortgage and bills because that's what we're supposed to do. Those at the top get richer and I can't help but feel like we're gradually being coaxed into a trap of believing our work is more important than it is to justify spending so much time there. I don't like that schools are focused on creating a 'productive' workforce of tomorrow, or that I'm viewed as a unit of productivity and the obsession with GDP. We're not ants surely? Am I the only grumpy one that wants to go off grid and hibernate from all the busy productive people. I'm not lazy but I just don't get it. AIBU?

Out of interest does anyone know how the Monday-Friday week / 9-5 came about?

I think it only came about en- masses after the industrial revolution. Read some article about it once but it referred to my local area. Yorkshire and the wool trade.
Before Ind R work was referred to as jobs or pieces. It was done around the home. Weaving, carding, washing fleeces, growing food. Taking finished bits of cloth to the piece hall to sell. Some Jobs were done at any time of day. Work was a family activity designed to directly sustain you. Your children had jobs too.
You may have owed jobs to your landlord in exchange for your rent ( such as help with harvest or shearing)
This is why we had the Luddites ( they were not really about just resisting change) they were concerned that with the coming of the factory’s that you lost control of your own work.

That's interesting nursy1 about the Luddites, I didn't know that.

I've felt this big time, and I think it's particularly an illness of the upper middle/highly educated classes, because I've only ever heard these sort of "work=only real path to fulfilment" attitudes from my UM uni and work colleagues, and never from WC school friends or family.

I'm a SAHM and honestly I've slowly retreated from friendships with some of those people because I got fed up with the "aren't you bored"/head tilt/"a brain like yours going to waste" kind of comments, and I've seen them breathe a sigh of relief when I say I'm trying to write a book. But like, I could easily earn what I'll likely make off of writing by working in a minimum wage job part time while my kids are in kindergarten, so what's so great about writing? There's this pressure to Be something, and doubly so because I'm a woman with kids - I think they would have more respect to my life choices if I was genuinely idle rather than looking after kids. It feels like we all have this responsibility to be making use of our brains and our education through working, but the thing is - my brain's never been so free to think the thoughts it wants than now (also when I had manual jobs at uni in the summer) and as for my education, there's been a long term global shift of my profession out of Europe and into Asia. Nobody wants me to use my big science brain to do science. Seriously, there are plenty of other people desperate to do that job and I am happy to let them carry on. But it messes with people's heads. Schools are run in such a way as to let the kids believe that education adds value to you as a person and that that value is the monetary value placed on you by the job market. It's bullshit. Education adds value to you, but as a person experiencing the world, not as a unit of production.

Having said that, if I hadn't had a good 15 years of a decent salary and if DH wasn't still employed and making good money, I'd be in at the coal face still, scrapping over the remaining jobs. But what I'm saying is, not because I think it's the only way to achieve meaning in life or because I have the responsibility as a brainy or educated person or as a woman.

What I'm saying Gwen is that you find your unskilled job easy then you clearly have plenty of capacity to learn new skills. You seem to think it's an employer's responsibility to provide progression for people while they do nothing?

"What I'm saying Gwen is that you find your unskilled job easy then you clearly have plenty of capacity to learn new skills. "

Everyone unskilled person has plenty of capacity to learn new skills. They may not have the time though as they are working full time in their unskilled job in order to survive.

"You seem to think it's an employer's responsibility to provide progression for people while they do nothing?"

When did I say that? I said nothing of the sort?
What I'm saying is that many, if not most, jobs do not have opportunities for progression, which is something plenty of Mumsnetters just refuse to accept.

"I think they would have more respect to my life choices if I was genuinely idle rather than looking after kids."

I can believe that because I know that in certain circles it's better to be unemployed while looking for a new career job than doing a less skilled job.

Plenty of jobs don't offer progression, you're right, which is why it's up to people themselves to develop their skills and look for opportunities. If you're a cleaner you might look for a bigger organisation where there are levels of management or start your own local cleaning company for example. The fact that your current employer doesn't offer progression is unfortunate but not impossible to overcome

Also, companies like McDonald's and Lidl offer very good training and progression opportunities, it's partly why they're so successful

YANBU. I've just gone back to work from maternity leave. To start with I enjoyed being back at work. But a couple of weeks in the novelty has worn off and I am missing my children. I dropped a day but am working extra hours to try and make sure I stay on top of things. The pressure is immense and I feel miserable.

"I think they would have more respect to my life choices if I was genuinely idle rather than looking after kids"

That is so sad and misogynist really. Because looking after children is traditionally women's work, it is not valued.

The Luddites weren't wrong about losing control then!

The current problem with this airy idea that the people working in unskilled jobs should take evening classes or whatever is that they have no time, because of artificially low wages which mean they have to scrabble around for any extra hours they can get - or they are working far longer than they are being paid for, because employers are forever trying to boost profits for shareholders cut costs by refusing to pay for things like travel time or waiting time. Some employers make staff clock out to use the loo, or insist they arrive 20 minutes before they start work ie give the employer an additional 20 minutes of their time, for no pay, every working day.

The idea that you could start by sweeping the floor and end up as CEO was always a bit exaggerated, as the structure of nearly every company only has room for a few senior managers - and rather more floor sweepers, so they can't all make it to the top of the pyramid.

But it's true that a lot of people would prefer to work in a way they have control over - except these days, there's a whole industry dedicated to scamming such people (MLMs...)

Also where are all these evening classes? They used to be at my local library but that shut down.

I don’t blame people who look at the odds stacked against them and think ‘fuck that’ and live for the weekend rather than break their back on a gamble.

I totally agree that a lot of employers treat their employees appallingly. The stupid thing is, the cost of employee dissatisfaction and turnover is far higher than any savings you could ever have by micromanaging and generally being a tyrant. Research has shown in fact that while paying people more for what they do does have an impact on their commitment and productivity, recognition, thanks, encouragement and opportunity have a far far greater impact on employee satisfaction. Beyond a certain level, increasing someone's pay has absolutely no effect on how they feel about their job and that makes total sense because high pay is great but given how long you spend at work, poor conditions are going to outweigh pay in the long run.

To be clear, I am aware of situations where people's hands are genuinely tied - where they're working all hours just to pay for basic things and they have no time or energy to get out of that cycle.

What I've come across a lot though is situations where people complain about their situation and express envy for people who have it better but who simply refuse to take the opportunities they could take. To a certain extent people build their own cages and keep themselves firmly within them.

I was very lucky and had a career I loved, I found myself medically retired in my forties . I have a decent pension and absolutely no money worries at all. Having all the spare time in the world is after a while a little boring sometimes. I remember loving my job but yearning for more spare time so I do know that feeling but when it's day in and day out it's less special.

The working your way up culture has changed, my Mother did actually do something amazing which was start off as a cleaner and end up the manager of a very large establishment in a national chain and in charge of dozens of staff. Those days are long gone now I saw her old role advertised a few years ago, it's now a graduate scheme role. This was in the 1970's and 1980's. She retired early as well on an amazing pension, the girl who left school at 14 in around 1940 with only a school leavers certificate. But my Mother always broke the mold in eveything she did.

Tea "I don’t blame people who look at the odds stacked against them and think ‘fuck that’ and live for the weekend rather than break their back on a gamble"

Thank you for saying this so much more succinctly than my feeble attempts.

Re evening classes, govt stopped funding evening classes for adults about 20 years ago. The people who would have really welcomed these classes can't afford what is on offer now.

Someone on MN also summed up the reason why many of us limit our careers in a way that really relates to the op post. In white collar work, often a promotion will mean a 5% pay increase for a 20% workload increase. I use those figures for the sake of easy maths, but it's like the OP said, it's as if there's some kind of societal value attached to that crappy deal, and part of it is you are supposed to be excited to buy a new Primark top or whatever. It makes more sense to say no, live simply and cheaply where possible, and just ignore all the people who think you ought to work harder for this paltry "reward".

Just a point on the Ten Hours Bill in the Victorian era - people were often injured in factories due to fatigue, so that was another driver.

Beyond a certain level, increasing someone's pay has absolutely no effect on how they feel about their job and that makes total sense because high pay is great but given how long you spend at work, poor conditions are going to outweigh pay in the long run.

I happen to be familiar with this research. But IIRC it actually finds that the point at which the increases attractiveness additional pay becomes marginal at best is when people get paid enough to basically not have to worry about their finances as a general rule.

This would very much imply that it doesn't really apply well to people working long hours because anything less would leave them struggling financially.

nursy1

Thank you so much for your comments on the Luddites. Luddite has become a derogatory term but the poor folk had their living removed pretty much overnight and there was no welfare to rely on then -
As Lord Byron put it -

"But whilst these outrages must be admitted to exist to an alarming extent, it cannot be denied that they have arisen from circumstances of the most unparalleled distress. The perseverance of these miserable men in their proceedings, tends to prove that nothing but absolute want could have driven a large and once honest and industrious body of the people into the commission of excesses so hazardous to themselves, their families, and the community."

Agree about the higher pay above a certain level making less difference - but my main point is that a lot of jobs have deliberately, artificially low pay. Pay is held down, year on year, to maximize shareholder profit. Pay is the area in which shitty companies 'economize' the most. This is another reason why there is so much fetishization of 'hard work' - it's to promote the idea that if you object to bad pay and/or bad working conditions, you are a bad person; a lazy scrounger, a troublemaker.
People who are paid a living wage (or slightly more than a living wage) for their work, and made aware that there will be structured pay rises, and treated as though they, as human beings, matter to their employers, will work effectively, offer loyalty to the organisation and stay in their jobs longer than people who are underpaid and treated like disposable junk.

It's a common reason for the failure of those 'service' startups (Task Rabbit and the like) - they work out as such a shitty deal for the 'independent contractors' that those people walk away, or botch the jobs they are allocated... or strike a private deal with someone who wants a regular job doing, which cuts out the agency and means cheaper work for the client and more money for the supplier.

After not working, at all, for the best part of 10 years, I now have my dream job. I now get paid for doing something that I did voluntary for nearly 30 years.

I work 2 days a week, get paid the living wage, and absolutely love it.

I am lucky that I am married to one of those workaholics, who works 70+ hours a week, willingly, because he also loves his job. His wage was enough to support us both for the ten years that I chose not to work.

I still can't quite believe that I am being paid to do something that I did for free and, because it is only two days a week, I can't ever see myself retiring.

So I have the perfect balance, for me.

The Luddites weren't wrong about losing control then

As someone else said, the luddites had a bad press. The DM of the day put about that they were standing in the way of progress and that impression lasts to this day.
With coming of the new robotic ind revolution do you think we will have a chance to go back to the old ways of work?
We must make sure the money from this is fairly shared through society with a UB Income

Joanna57

I am in a similar situation.

I have not worked full time for 20 years, and not at all while the kids were young.
Although not a huge earner my OH carried the can financially, doing a job he loved, and able to pick up lots of overtime etc.

My youngest is 18 and I am now making money from something that started as a type of hobby, but I won't work more than 20 hours a week- far too much other stuff to do, and like you I won't consider retiring, as my work is fun too.
But then retirement is not such an imperative if you only work 20 hours a week.

I haven’t read the whole thread but my life would be incomplete if I didn’t work. I finally have my dream job after 15 years in the wrong career (for me). I have a preteen and a teen who don’t need a lot of hands-on care any more and I honestly think I would be depressed if I didn’t work.
I have an office job which would seem boring to many, but I truly enjoy contributing to a higher cause and helping out people.
I plan to work for as long as I can.

but I truly enjoy contributing to a higher cause

So SAHM are not "contributing to a higher cause?

Also while many jobs are " worthy"- nursing, teaching etc, many are just making and selling shit that no-one needs.

I now work just a couple of days a week as a Locum. Plenty of work so I have a break when I need andstep it up if I need the money.

As someone said this frees up your mind and gives time for you to be yourself.
I love my chosen profession again now and take great pleasure in my workdays but I don’t miss being ruled by the alarm clock and exhaustion