to be horrified that people are forgetting the Holocaust?

[FleurDelacoeur]

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-shows-americans-are-forgetting-about-holocaust-n865396

OK, so it's an American study but 11% of all adults and 20% of millenials in the US haven't heard of the holocaust, or aren't sure whether they've heard of it or not.

Given that this is one of the most important events of the 20th century isn't this simply appalling? How can people NOT know??

I'm not aware of the curriculum in the rest of the UK but I know my secondary age kids in Scotland have learned about the Holocaust as part of a WW2 topic, and it was touched on in RE too when they learned about Judaism.

And quite frankly if it wasn't in the curriculum I'd be making sure they knew about it as it's such an important event which should never be forgotten.

Also in terms of trying to understand, there is general thought that because of the Holocaust 'Israel' should know better. I read a book, sorry name escapes me by a German academic Jew who spent her childhood in the camps and she said ' It was hardly a university of compassion'. It seems if a 'people' are nearly wiped out it will make them MORE determined to survive, so I don't think it is ironic, I think it's a right old survival instinct.

@bumper I am Arab Armenian and would be very happy to talk through the politics and history of the Middle East with you as (as you can imagine) my family lived through it and I’m well versed. Zionists had been buying land in Palestine for years, the Balfour Declaration post WW1 confirmed the Jews should have a land in Palestine, but it was absolutely the influx of European Jews escaping the horror of the holocaust that sealed the deal in 1948!!!

Scourge Of The Swastika by Lord Russell is another good book

The 'move on' crowd drive me nuts. No!! We are still grieving massively and trying to pick up the pieces. Then there's the Rumsfeld/Bush/Cheney/Wolfowitz/Perle crowd. I think they (well their ancestors) all collaborated back then too.

They take everything (Jewish, Christian, Muslim - doesn't matter) and they will do it again if they can.

Srongmummy, no thanks this a thread about the Holocaust and I think it would be shabby to turn it into something else. All the best.

Bumper, so the survival instinct makes you commit atrocities towards other people because you had those same appalling atrocities committed against you. So because you had to suffer, now you make other wronged people suffer more too. Great logic.

I was uncomfortable with that comment too

No that's not what I meant , I was as you will see, reporting on the German academic Jew ( whose name I cannot remember ) on what she replied to thought to the idea that people who have been nearly wiped out should be somehow 'kinder', she said in her book that the death camps she spent her childhood in were not universities of compassion.So please don'y put words in my mouth. What is the attack mentality on MN?

Well I agree bumper. I can't see what's "really ironic" about israels policies.

@Helmet , building on occupied land, allowing settlers to take Palestinian’s houses in East Jerusalem with no reproach, arresting and torturing children? Could be that perhaps.

However @bumper, I do sort of get the survival instinct point made by the German academic actually. All humans have the capability to be cruel, especially if they feel threatened.

Strongmummy - when you say allowing settlers to take Palestinian houses in Jerusalem, you do realise that they have bought these houses? And that there are plenty of Arabs who buy in West Jerusalem. Is that objectionable as well? Remember also that the Jews were ethnically cleansed from the Old City in 1948 (to protests from absolutely no-one)

@samG76 it really does depend on who you believe doesn’t it I think. They say they buy the buildings, the Palestinians say they don’t. However, East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Of course Arabs buy in West Jerusalem, it isn’t occupied territory and there are many Arab Israelis so why wouldn’t they buy there. I have family who are Arab Israeli.

I do think it’s odd, that at the moment it’s trendy to ask the British people in general to take on collective guilt about slavery and Empire and accept they are oppressors because of it. For the entire span of slavery and most of Empire most of the British population had no vote and was entirely powerless to do anything about it. It also assumes they were even aware at all in an age of poor communication, no mass media and high illiteracy levels. And most of the British population were also pretty horribly exploited and oppressed at the time. They were entirely created, sustained and of benefit to an elite. Yet responsibility these days is equally shared between descendants of those who profited and working class white kids in Middlesbrough or Barnsley.

Yet the Holocaust has become this event which a lot of people seem to think was caused by a small group of people which the wider German population completely opposed. There was a thread on here a few weeks ago where most of the posters were insisting that ordinary German’s completely opposed Nazi anti-semitism. Despite the Nazis winning an election democratically on an openly anti-Semitic ticket, the overwhelming Austrian vote for Anchluss, the almost total absence of resistance and the fact that regular widespread anti-Semitic violence occurred right in front of them.

It’s weird how history gets rewritten to suit present day interests.

Strongmummy - so you are saying that no-one who lives in an occupied territory can sell a building? Or is it just that Israelis can't buy. Or is it only Jewish Israelis who can't buy. What about foreign Jews, or foreign Christians?

I appreciate that there are some dodgy organisations buying up property in E Jlem, and many of the settlers are deeply unsympathetic, but I am wondering exactly what the issue is.

Perhaps we have a different understanding of the word 'ironic'.

@samG76, I question whether buildings are actually being sold by Palestinians in the first place or if they are, whether they are doing it under duress. I’m afraid that I don’t take as fact that Palestinians are happily selling their property to settlers, especially as EAst Jerusalem is so important.

My year 8 son is going to Auchwitz next year as part of a learning experience.

Mightymucks History has also been written in a way that tells you about the interests and concerns of society at the time rather than an objective 'truth'. (Also historical fiction, films etc - things like Russell Crowes Robin Hood is great for telling you about 21st century American beliefs in freedom rather than Robin Hood).It's been going on for centuries - medieval Scottish histories tended to focus on how they had always been independent from England because the English were trying to invade them (and writing histories about how Scotland has always been subservient to England). It's been going on for centuries - medieval Scottish histories tended to focus on how they had always been independent from England because the English were trying to invade them (and writing histories about how Scotland has always been subservient to England).

When a country is under threat, history tends to have a nationalistic emphasis/focus in the origins and independence of that nation; the development of sociology as a subject happened at a similar time as social history started taking off; right now there is a growing interest in the history of overlooked communities which goes hand in hand with the rise of BlackLives matter and similar movements.

I find it quite fascinating.

At least 350 Palestinian children are imprisoned by Israel. There are many allegations of mistreatment of Palestinian children in that they get restrained in harsh and cruel ways and get denied food and water.

Just yesterday a palestninan child was shot for protesting against Israeli brutal occupation. So yeah, they shot him.

I'll just leave this here.

Israel’s treatment of Palestinians in Hebron is 'apartheid', former Tory international development minister says

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/israel-palestine-hebron-apartheid-desmond-swayne-uk-government-minister-a7432091.html

Calling illegal settlements and land occupation (levelling out palestinian homes) to protect such settlements, followed by more illegal settlements and more land occupation, as purchasing property is laughable.

But it's really not for this thread.

Move on from the Holocaust; it was a disaster what the actual fuck?!?! There are some ignorant as shit posters on here. When we remember the Holocaust, we think of all other genocides and atrocities that have occurred since then, precisely because lessons have not been learnt. Look at the rise of anti-Semitism in the UK and Europe. Look at ethnic cleansing in Myanmar. And look at bloody Trump whipping up hatred for Mexicans in the USA. ‘Build a wall to keep them out’, not ‘ let’s review the security on the border to stop illegal immigration’ - look at the difference in semantics.

Well I am English and really don't remember being taught about the Holocaust. Mind you I tended to skip off school a lot! But anything like that or Partition or the clearances or Irish troubles I have read up on on my own.

eddierussett, I agree. But given UK academia’s strong left wing slant I don’t think nationalism is what is rewriting history at the moment.

I don’t necessarily think that all of the focus of history on minority groups driven by things like black lives matter is necessarily positive. Particularly the rush to judge historical figures by 21st century standards when they had neither the information nor the theories we have now available to them but are castigated for not adhering to them (Churchill being a good example).

I think the priorities of UK academia are generally reflected in current trends of thinking.

So a remain positive nationalism negative academic body minimises the role of German’s in the Holocaust. But at the same time emphasises negative images of British actions in Empire and slavery and encourages collective responsibility and a negative view of Britishness.

It is extremely interesting that German’s now seem to be absolved of something more recent, more directly linked to the direct populace and that the German’s had much more power to prevent. Where as the British are being told we should indulge in general flaggelation for things which happened longer ago, a long way from Britain, when most of the British population were entirely powerless and probably ignorant of the events concerned.

Playing down the Holocaust suits anti-Israel rhetoric. And ignoring Jewish persecution in the Middle East (particularly under the Ottoman Empire) distracts from the fact this is part of a pattern of anti Jewish feeling in the ME which existed long before the creation of Israel.