to be horrified that people are forgetting the Holocaust?

[FleurDelacoeur]

www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/study-shows-americans-are-forgetting-about-holocaust-n865396

OK, so it's an American study but 11% of all adults and 20% of millenials in the US haven't heard of the holocaust, or aren't sure whether they've heard of it or not.

Given that this is one of the most important events of the 20th century isn't this simply appalling? How can people NOT know??

I'm not aware of the curriculum in the rest of the UK but I know my secondary age kids in Scotland have learned about the Holocaust as part of a WW2 topic, and it was touched on in RE too when they learned about Judaism.

And quite frankly if it wasn't in the curriculum I'd be making sure they knew about it as it's such an important event which should never be forgotten.

Why would OP not know about Pol Pot and Pinochet? I am not sure you can compare directly. We all have gaps in our knowledge of course, but there are some stuff like the Holocaust you are just expected and assumed to know. It happened on our door step and most people would know what role their grand parents played during the war for example.

Did I say there was anything wrong with being interested in dressing up, make up, selfies, going out, looking good etc? It is relevant to the topic at hand though, people never learn or forget about things like the holocaust, current attrocities etc, because they just don't care or aren't interested.

Woman-hating/superiority complex? Many men these days are the same. Why would I feel superior about being interested in different things? Frustrated that mor people don't care, but superior? Many of these woman are more intelligent than me, but I wasn't talking about intelligence?

"What you can't see is the time I spend reading and learning from different sources"

Was I talking about you? I was talking about people I know personally, people who have admitted they aren't sure what the holocaust was. And have no interest in finding out, or teaching their children about it. Did I hit a nerve? Have you got a fear off being labelled considered a "pretty dumb blonde" or something? The selfie generation is what it is. Times have changed.

Labelled/

Well, saying the holocaust was over 100 years ago. - Dim.

Not understanding the meaning of the word 'Genocide' but going on about it as if you do anyway. - Dim.

Saying that there were bigger genocides this century? - Dim.

Going 'this is fake-news'. - Super-dim.

Calling it a 'European disaster.' - weird.

'What makes it worthier to remember than anything else?' - unusual/thick.

But that was just a few ignorant posters: other than that, I think most contributions have been quite coherent.

I doubt OP knows much if anything about the Armenian genocide, stalin’s Gulags, Mao’s Great Leap Forward, the Bataan death march, the fate of communists in Franco’s Spain, the crimes perpetuated by Noriega or Pol Pot or Pinochet etc etc etc.

Why wouldn't she know these things? The only area here I would struggle with would be the Bataan death march - apologies - but the rest ...will be understood by people who know basic world history and read a broadsheet newspaper occasionally.

Come on Wicked, you didn't mention men once, just women. And you didn't have to directly state 'there is something wrong with focusing on your appearance' for it to be crystal clear that in your eyes, those people are somehow wrong/inferior because you've decided that their focus on their appearance means they don't have any clue about or interest in history or world events. You may have met a handful of individuals who you have spoken to long enough to know they don't know anything about WW2, but to extrapolate that to say that almost all of the women in your area are more focused on selfies than learning about world events is false and sneery. I can't abide this sneering that some women seem to feel the need to do against others for their choices, usually based on nothing but flimsy stereotyping. I'm not the only poster who spotted you were placing yourself on a pedestal.

Have you got a fear off being labelled considered a "pretty dumb blonde" or something?

Well I'm not blonde and I wouldn't consider myself a knockout, so no. Then again I don't go round making judgments about what someone knows based on their proclivity for selfies and having pride in aspects of their appearance so it wouldn't usually enter my head anyone would be judgmental or dumb enough to think the same of me.

How on earth has what has largely been an interesting discussion about the Holocaust got down to having a go at women interested in their own appearance?! What should we all go round with a list of books we've just read to prove our knowledge?
WTF?!

today, it's mostly people who preach hate who complain that freedom of expression is being curtailed

Don't be too complacent.

Having two mumsnet profiles, being goady in one, then answering to responses about the goadiness in the other - dim

Who's done that?

You're right Mississippilessly. I shouldn't have taken the bait, on what is a thread about something completely different.

Back to topic!

Lweji-I disagree with Alpine in relation to History. It does inform the present and why we are here in the situation that we are.Even at Ancient Greece and Rome we can take many lessons.See the rise of Julius Caeser

If you believe history is cyclical, that history 'always repeats its self', but in reality it doesn't, due to context

Yes it can inform the present but my point was about the way history is taught. I find the instruction that pupils should 'Face up' to history off putting. Also the pushing of modern political agendas onto past events off putting

History is about dates, events, research. Much of it is a long, sometimes boring, plod. But that is the basic framework as it should be.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but to me teaching past events by comparing them with current events is out of context.

"You didn't have to directly state 'there is something wrong with focusing on your appearance' for it to be crystal clear that in your eyes, those people are somehow wrong/inferior"

I don't think they're wrong, or inferior, just different. I do think we should teach things like the holocaust in school, as many children won't learn about it at home, and I think there are a lot of important lessons to be learnt there.

"You've decided that their focus on their appearance means they don't have any clue about or interest in history or world events"

The majority of them have admitted at some stage they don't have any clue or interest.

"but to extrapolate that to say that almost all of the women in your area are more focused on selfies than learning about world events is false and sneery"

Most of the millenial women in my tiny housing estate, would happily say they think both are a load of shite, and they'd rather have wine, music and a girly pampering session, or go out for a nice meal, than watch a documentary or read. I don't see how acknowledging that is false or sneery I don't know why some of you are taking a post about a small close knit group of millenials who like what they like, so personally? Anyway, sorry to derail.

@WickedLazy that is a scandalous comment to make. So misogynistic.

@Alpine, it’s not about necessarily comparing past events with present events. It’s about understanding HOW past events have a direct effect on present events. E.g the Holocaust led to the creation of Israel and a conflict which is still going on to this day!

My DD (12) just did a whole term's topic on WW2 including the holocaust. (Not just the home front or a nearby blitz which are often taught)

She was horrified and completely absorbed by it. I studied it at senior school. We are in Scotland.

Strongmummy-...It’s about understanding HOW past events have a direct effect on present events...

But the study of history is not about understanding present day events and nor should it be. Though to study and understand present day events, in other words national and global politics, you will need some knowledge of the history leading up to a present political situation.

History is about understanding events within the context of the times, you might acknowledge that this led to current political situation, in a summing up, but that is not the purpose of it.

"Nor is there one single piece of evidence of any SS member being punished for refusing to participate"

Even when people don't hate people, they'll often go to mad extremes to be "obedient" to a "higher authority". Milgrams experiments are a good example of this. Plus the SS were considered an elite organisation, they had swanky uniforms, were paid well, treated well and would have had a lot of perks.

Some of the anti jewish propoganda was vile, comparing them to rats etc. I'd imagine the average German person with a more moderate viewpoint, would have been terrified to voice their opinions. Say the wrong thing to the wrong neighbour, and you might mysteriously disappear. Or worse, they could make an example out of you.

@Alpine, any history teacher worth their salt would not teach history in a vacuum. You wouldn’t teach kids about the Tudors without mentioning Henry VIII, you wouldn’t teach Henry VIII without mentioning his break from Rome, you wouldn’t mention the break from Rome without mentioning the establishment of the monarch as the head of the Church of England ..... an institution we still have today

Strongmummy -any history teacher worth their salt would not teach history in a vacuum. You wouldn’t teach kids about the Tudors without mentioning Henry VIII, you wouldn’t teach Henry VIII without mentioning his break from Rome, you wouldn’t mention the break from Rome without mentioning the establishment of the monarch as the head of the Church of England ..... an institution we still have today

I understand your point and in summing up it is relevant for a teacher to
briefly acknowledge the result of past events
But the purpose of studying the Tudors, the Reformation and the Church of England is not, and should not be, about the 'institutions we have today'.

@Alpine, I think the one of the main uses of history is very much about understanding how the past relates to the present. Of course when you teach it you’re going to teach what happens in the past, but without relating it to the now it’s not very accessible. I think we may actually be agreeing

History is taught in UK schools through a very specific and limited cultural lens. I was an adult before I knew that the British 'invented' concentration camps in the Boer war.

today, it's mostly people who preach hate who complain that freedom of expression is being curtailed

I'm afraid that's wrong - there are many examples where people are being accused of "Hate" for voicing perfectly legitimate thoughts.

People are losing their positions & jobs for saying that women don't have penises - which is a biological fact.

Look at the Lefts attempts to label everyone that didn't want to be part of the EU a "Racist" or "Stupid".

Freedom of Speech is about being able to say what you think without being marginalised, blocked or accused of things. It's getting eroded at a frightening rate...

Look at the Lefts attempts to label everyone that didn't want to be part of the EU a "Racist" or "Stupid

Corbyn doesnt support brexit, does that make him Right wing? or May left wing because she is still a remainer?

If you are going to come out with our opinions, try to base them on fact!
Remain or Leave was not Left V Right at all.

Maybe I'm old fashioned, but to me teaching past events by comparing them with current events is out of context.

More that you can't understand the present without knowing about the past.

An obvious example is the Middle East, but not only.

You can look at what happened since The Prophet and use it to explain how you end up with the current mess.

What happened in Bosnia should have been prevented if people had looked at how Yugoslavia got to be and how the region was before it.
WWI was intrinsically linked to a murder in Sarajevo by a Serbian nationalist.
The Ottoman Empire reached almost as far as Vienna, which was under siege.
These events are not only historical curiosities. They shaped current politics and events.