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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Aibu to think Mumsnet has issues with black women

624 replies

Ghanagirl · 14/04/2018 11:51

Just that really, I’ve read really horrible comments about Meghan Markle, Alexandra Burke, Serena Williams talented and hardworking individuals who seem to offend some Mumsnetters simply by being beautiful and successful.
I’m not surprised as happens in RL but I guess it’s disappointing as Mumsnet touts itself as a more educated network than netmums

OP posts:
TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 14:47

In the area I live in the white British people are a small minority, there are more polish whites than white brits. The white people that live here are very poor and struggling. Most families here have a mix of races in their make up now so institutional racism in the police etc affects these people directly. and if poor uneducated chavs were inherently racist there would be riots every month. I just do not see where white privilege or any privilege comes into it. I can't see what benefit being white has brought me, in fact I have been the victim of racism myself on a few occasions and the white working class mothers of black kids are looked down upon by both sides.

Mightymucks · 14/04/2018 14:47

flock, Jay and Casey do not agree with you. But regardless of whether or not that is the case, the victims existence proves the absence of white privilege when you’re poor. They were not protected from discrimination because of their class because of their colour.

0to3sadonions · 14/04/2018 14:47

There was a thread the other day about Khloe Kardashian, and every other post was slagging the family off and saying how much they hate them (kartrashians I think was said quite a bit)

Going by your logic, it can be for no other reason than that they’re half Asian.

TidyDancer · 14/04/2018 14:48

It is a mistake to think that just because someone takes something to be racist automatically makes it so. Not sure if it was the OP or someone else who said something about not being able to tell them what to think. And that's correct, but it doesn't make what you think right.

White privilege is definitely a 'thing'. Have a look at 'missing white woman syndrome' for a start. It's not everywhere and in everything though. I have seen racist comments made about SW but not on here, same goes for MM.

OP understandably is not impartial on this. No one would expect her to be if she's been subjected to disgusting abuse in the street.

TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 14:50

I'm with you Charalois as the mother of black and mixed race kids myself.

TabbyMack · 14/04/2018 14:57

So, OP, the only reason anyone could possibly dislike Meghan Markle, Alexandra Burke & Venus Williams is because of their skin colour?

Because that’s all they are...a skin colour? Their only value is their skin colour? They are not fully rounded women as subject to praise & criticism based on their personalities as anyone else?

No...for you, if anyone doesn’t like them it’s because they are black.

Now THAT is racist and ignorant.

I can’t stand the self-aggrandizing hypocritical Meghan Markle but I have more respect for her as a human being than you do, clearly.

Mightymucks · 14/04/2018 15:01

By always judging people by their race or skin colour you are the racist and you are putting massive chips on the shoulders of children that some of us are raising to be just plain decent human beings.

Amen to this. And I agree with the rest of your post too. And the MLK quote about children being judged by the content of their character rather than the colour of their skin.

The left has gone so far in fetishising race that rather than being an irrelevance to many it’s become the most important thing about people. So rather than judging people on the content of their character we’re judging them on the colour of the skin but only positively.

I happen to really like Serena, Venus, Michelle and Alexandra. I also have an awful lot of respect for their achievements. Doesn’t it rather cheapen their status and achievements if we are told we must be positive about black women regardless of their character or achievements?

I don’t think much of Markle. I don’t think she’s achieved much or is particularly impressive. I don’t think she really belongs with the other group of women just because of colour when their achievements are so much more impressive.

TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 15:13

Think as just as the social justice warriors like to virtue signal with the trans agenda, the same thing has happened with race and common sense has effed off out the window.

Palavra · 14/04/2018 15:25

Anyone who is white has white privilege. They can be poor and disadvantaged in other ways. It’s not a criticism of people who are white. I am a woc and I benefit from privilege too after all, for example I am Sephardi Jewish and usually confused for being North African which, although exposing me to racism doesn’t mean that my hair is considered unprofessional in its natural state for example except when I was told to straighten it by a teacher before uni interviews - in terms of colourism I have never felt pressure to use whitening creams for example. But my children are lighter skinned than me and will pass as white (unlike me) just olive skinned and that is going to be an advantage in life, they’ll be less likely to be followed around in shops by security, more likely to receive job offers, more likely to be given the benefit of the doubt in court. Denying white privilege is denying the last 15-20yrs of racial discourse and academic discussion. In my very multicultural area of London where I think it’s somethung like 70-75% minority, white privilege is accepted as a fact by all people it has come up with, and frankly I believe that by dismissing and ignoring its existence, that is an act of racism. It denies the basic reality that every poc I know experiences. There’s no point playing the victim game and pretending being Irish or being poor cancels out privilege, just like it would be wrong of me to act as if the fact I am a woc means I don’t benefit from other privileges in regards to where I live, having no physical disability, etc. I certainly understand this privilege in that I had a teacher who was racist against Tamil students and therefore in turn gave preference to students who weren’t Tamil like me, I am not Roma but am well aware of the largely accepted and awful racism and antiziganism, for example. I have privilege in many forms - just not white privilege.

I have posted on mumsnet multiple times about racism. I’m fairly confident I’ve brought up statistics about white privilege. It is exhausting and I cannot be bothered to collate any more statistics because I am lucky to live in a community where it feels most people are aware of privilege. If you have come to 2018 without an understanding of it it feels like a pointed and intentional ignorance and refusal to engage.

For the OP, it’s difficult sometimes to explain how woc are often targeted more. Just like how a woman is given less benefit of the doubt than a man or might be interrupted more. It is subtle. Yes white Women face criticism but I too remember he Meghan Markle stuff, threads on the Williams sisters, not to mention the constant disregard of racism. Poc are given far less benefit of the doubt. This comes up in the court system, in stop and search, in schools, in job interviews and on mumsnet. Black women are seen as being hypermasculine or not dainty enough to fit into traditional white royalty.

Other bits of racism: I remember a small thread about the Notting Hill carnival and whether it was dangerous, which was ‘subtly’ racist - by which I mean glaringly obvious for anyone who is willing to engage and see racism - of course for posters who aren’t the fact there were no racial slurs involved probably meant it will never be seen as racist. I know there have been multiple threads where posters ask for recommendations for holiday places in the UK and are told that their concerns over racism is wrong or unnecessary (yeah well I am not rocking up in rural villages without checking the racism situation first and ideally want a place where we aren’t th only family who aren’t white), the same for wanting places to move to. Not to mention threads about funny things children say, there’s always a ´hahaha my kids called a black man chocolate!’ One thread I saw last year was about a racist comment made by an older man...OP was criticised for ageism by a poster on no grounds except they wanted an ‘ism’ to accuse the poster of so they can disengage with racism. Actually I just searched that and found another thread derailed by accusations of ageism by an OP wanting to ask how to deal with elderly relatives who are being racist.

Does anyone remember the clip on BBC news where a white father was being interviewed, the children came swinging into the room with the harassed mum dragging them out. She was called a nanny by a lot of posters, who didn’t understand why assuming an Asian woman cannot be in a relationship with a white man and have children with him and instead must be a nanny is racist.

For me the racism in mumsnet is undeniable, albeit usually casual and subtle to someone who hasn’t experienced it. I am sure i have missed racial slurs being deleted however but what I dislike the most is the constant denial of racism. I think that is fairly typical of British racism.

uberqueen · 14/04/2018 15:34

I have thought about it quite a lot. ‘White privilege’ is a very frustrating concept for a lot of white people, mainly poor ones, because they don’t have it. Nobody would presume to contradict black people’s lived experience of racism, but poor white people aware constantly told they have this privilege despite their own experience telling them that they don’t.*

Please research the meaning further then if you think poor whites people don't experience it .

You compare a poor white person to a poor POC

Who is more likely to suffer / struggle ?
Who historically and currently struggles more ?
Would would be more likely to encounter prejudice ?
Who is more likely to be imprisoned , shot, sentenced , etc ?
Put them both in a suit and at a job interview . Who is most likely to get it ?

Shocked at the lack of understand of white privilege on here and the number of people denying it and applauding those who refute it

hesterton · 14/04/2018 15:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SoupyNorman · 14/04/2018 15:37

That’s a great post Palavra and deserves to be read carefully.

n0ne · 14/04/2018 15:48

I'm a PoC and longstanding MNer and I've not noticed this. People with massive chips on their shoulders do not help our cause. HTH

Ghanagirl · 14/04/2018 15:48

Bluntness 100

Well I'm on here a lot. And I've not noticed it.
Maybe because it doesn’t pertain to you and you have similar views
Nor have most posters many who are regulars,
Maybe it tells me you’re of a similar demographic and consider yourselfs “Mumsnet Royalty”

Are you saying no black woman can ever be critisiced?
Where did I say that? To make it clear I never said that, I find certain men and women annoying but I I’m not posting views that are thinly disguised racism.

An intelligent conversation is not just agreeing with you when you call 12 million people inherantly racist and misogynistic,

When did I call 12 million people racist?

Do you have this problem in real life? Where any personal slight, any critisism, you cannot see it for what it is, you always assume it's skin colour that driving it? Do you think if someone doesn't like a white woman it's because of her skin colour too? Or can you relate that to the person and look past skin colour?

No because although I’ve had racist abuse (a lot) growing up in a white working class environment, I also had some amazing black and white working class women who were amazingly strong and protective of me when I was a child.

Why are black women who are members not shouting it from the roof tops?
After your rant you really need to ask🤔

In addition the media scrutinises this site. We are accused of many things, But we do not stand accused of this.
Oh yes scrutiny from the Daily Mail the champion of Women of colour!

The question you need to think about, is if millions of black women use this site. Why are you the only one to think the membership has a problem and what are you thus saying about those black female members
I think the question you need to ask yourself is why you can’t except

  1. a point of view that’s different to your own.
  2. When you say millions of black women use this site I disagree that millions of British black women use Mumsnet as there’s not that many of us in uk!
OP posts:
Ghanagirl · 14/04/2018 16:03

n0ne
I don’t have “a chip on my shoulder”
I’m lucky that I’m living in London with a husband who came from a fantastic private school in Africa and went to one of the top universities in England (paid for by his parents) when the wealthy elite in uk got a free ride plus a grant and most white working class didn’t go to uni.
Despite all that I’m still allowed to call out racism and for what it’s worth I grew up in a white working class area and I do recognise that life’s not easy for this section of society but my thread was about women of colour.

OP posts:
TabbyMack · 14/04/2018 16:03

Palavra

No one sensible doubts white privilege or the existence of racism. No one. And the examples you’ve given are valid...especially the “nanny” one which I recall.

The issue is whether expressed dislike of a person of colour is automatically racist as the OP seems to think. You “remember” the Markle threads? Can you also remember a single post that even mentioned her skin colour (other than those people yelling “racisim”) because I can’t.

It is offensive to assume racism on the grounds that racism exists which seems to be the crux of your argument.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 14/04/2018 16:10

I can’t stand Meghan Markle because I find her false and hypocritical. I don’t know anything about Alexandra Burke other than she’s bloody annoying. I don’t watch womens’ tennis if I can help it so I can’t comment on Serena Williams. It’s got nothing to do with race, but the image they are projecting.

Michelle Obama on the other hand is an amazing role model for all girls and women, regardless colour.

TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 16:13

Of course white privilege exists. But more frequently on social media I see it as a term that is used to stop a discussion in its tracks. Things have moved on in the uk and especially in London many poor whites are the only whites in their neighbourhood. How do they feel about that? Are they allowed to feel anything?

These issues have become more and more complex and I would rather deal with people who put their opinions out there than the annoying rich middle class virtue signallers who have been educated to say all the right things in public but would privately freak out if one of their children brought one of my children home to marry.

In the Rotherham case I will repeat, those young girls had no privilege, white or otherwise and the fear of being accused of racism was a factor in the covering up of that case.

Mightymucks · 14/04/2018 16:14

Who is more likely to suffer / struggle ?
Whoever is poorest.
Who historically and currently struggles more ?
What a ridiculous question. Who are we comparing? Serfs in the 12th century to Egyptian pharaohs? This is just designed to con people with a poor knowledge of history into saying ‘black people’, but the reality is that the past was brutal. Many black and Asian people profited massively from the slave trade (in fact the trans Saharan Muslim slave trade long predated the European one). Most people in history had awful brutal lives, the few who didn’t have been a variety of different races.
Would would be more likely to encounter prejudice ?
I think a better question is ‘If you encounter prejudice, how is it dealt with’. If there are variety of different public sector organisations designed to prevent prejudice against you and it is illegal you’re probably doing quite well. If prejudice against you is hushed up by the same organisations and people who try and expose it are prosecuted or hounded from their jobs, you’re fucked.

Who is more likely to be imprisoned , shot, sentenced , etc ?. Who is more likely to have full access to the criminal justice system? Which race has routinely been excluded from access to the criminal justice system in towns up and down the country for decades on the basis of their race for serious crimes?
Put them both in a suit and at a job interview . Who is most likely to get it ?
The white middle class one.

Mightymucks · 14/04/2018 16:16

n the Rotherham case I will repeat, those young girls had no privilege, white or otherwise and the fear of being accused of racism was a factor in the covering up of that case.

Nick Griffin is a scumbag, but he told the truth about grooming gangs and was prosecuted and barely an eyebrow was lifted. The equivalent would be Doreen Lawrence being prosecuted for campaigning for justice for Stephen. And there would be riots if that happened.

Bluntness100 · 14/04/2018 16:18

Well I'm on here a lot. And I've not noticed it. Maybe because it doesn’t pertain to you and you have similar views

I have reported your post. How fucking dare you accuse me of being racist. How fucking dare you. That's one of the most offensive things I have read on here. Angry. Yes, very, I have never ever been accused of that in my life, and for very good reason. Because I challenged your view the site was racist you accuse me of also being racist?????

And mumsnet royalty is laughable, there is no such thing.

And there is 12 million members on this site. If you accuse mumsnet of being racist you accuse 12 million people.

missbonita · 14/04/2018 16:18

white people don't notice racism in the same way that men don't notice sexism and sexual harassment. Think of all the amazed men during the MeToo campaign, not many women were surprised. It's the same situation.

TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 16:19

Also I myself have only really heard the term white privilege a lot since last year, I do have friends who have no idea what it is and I had to explain it to them. Not everyone attended the same unis or even went to college at all. Don't assume everyone is on the same page, assuming that is privilege itself.

SerenDippitty · 14/04/2018 16:20

I objected to Serena Williams’ comments that giving birth would make her a “real woman”. I would have felt the same way about those comments had they been made by a white woman.

TitaniasCloset · 14/04/2018 16:21

Mightymucks you talk a lot of sense.