pt.2 To find floral tributes being left for Harry Vincent offensive

[lostjanni]

We reached the post limit so if anyone wants to carry on the discussion...

Your options are limited when the person you are up against is fitter and stronger than you. He did what he had to.

Yes and HV was also reportedly tall ( also an ex amateur boxer). Then there is the pensioners knowledge that there was two of these intruders in his house, the other one being upstairs in the bedroom with his disabled wife

The likelihood is that if I heard an intruder downstairs I would hide under the bed and call the police. Mr Osborn Brooks didn't get that choice though because they entered his bedroom and forced him downstairs. In that situation, substituting his vulnerable wife upstairs with my vulnerable children, with one of the men still in their room, damn right I would do whatever I had to.

Not sure if you realise how much you weaken your arguments, Mydog, when you start slinging personal insults around. Maybe a bit of measured thought would serve you better.

A scared householder in the dark who has just woken up may not be able to see properly and recognise a relative or lodger who has broken in. Not sure if you're being sarcastic about your mother with Alzheimer's breaking in, but it is not unknown for people with dementia to go wandering and try to get back into the wrong house, and indeed to succeed in doing so. And yes, people may well not have successfully tried to pass off premeditated murder as self defence by claiming that they were defending themselves against an intruder - precisely because the law gives safeguards around the laws on self defence that make that pretty difficult to do.

Are you seriously going to argue that it is fine to have a law that says a householder can kill any intruder purely for being an intruder?

HV looked very big, fit and able, will be much stronger than Mr Osborne-Brooks. Hats off to him for doing what he did, to get this guy away and not harming them.

No one is arguing their need to defend their TV are they though? Just you bringing ridiculous scenarios has no merit.

Plenty of people have said that the very fact of a burglar being in the house at all means he is fair game.

No sadly my mother has altzimers.

Sorry to be rude but I thought your scenarios were utterly ridiculous. Not saying you are.

To add no one has said it’s ok to kill any intruder in your house. I think you are too busy googling the law and you are not reading the posts properly because I and no one on here have suggested doing that.

Well I havnt and I can’t see anyone who has.

Under threat is totally different to stabbing or shooting someone running away with your tele.

Quite a lot of backtracking seems to be taking place...........

“But yes I believe that you should be allowed to use deadly force against intruders in your home as you have no way of knowing what their intentions are“

Exhibit A

Tbf I did say I think you should be allowed to use deadly force to protect yourself if someone breaks into your home. How do I know if they are going to rape/ kill me, harm my children etc. The law allows disproprtionate force which I'm satisfied about, I was really just musing on what I think- having been the victim of violent crime I think people should be allowed to defend themselves by whatever means necessary. I'm not lobbying for the law to change to stand your ground or anything!

“I think the allowance of disproportionate force better reflects the terrifying scenario of an intruder and how you might react in the heat of the moment.”

Exhibit B

What is wrong with disproportionate force? That is what the law allows.

“why do you think that a criminal dying commiting a crime did not derseve to die? By saying that, you are supporting this criminal, ”

Exhibit C

Talking about someone not deserving to die is strange when something has been ruled self defence. What was the alternative? That Mr Osborn Brooks not defend himself and his wife? A death ruled self defence is one of necessity.

Bertrand

I can’t decide if you are a lawyer or host a home shopping channel

To be fair I would expect the police and CPS to investigate all such incidents and reach a sensible conclusion taking all the facts of each case into account.

And clearly that’s what they did do here.

I am amazed that a wannabe liberal poster wishes it were "unspeakable" to question the travelling way of life. A way of life where 60-80% of women face domestic violence; where kids go uneducated and where girls can be married off far too young... but sure, nobody should question any of that...

www.firstlight.org.uk/gypsies-and-travellers/

The law clearly states that if you feel threatened for your safety or your families safety you can use whatever force you deem reasonable at the time to 'become safe'. The only way you would be found guilty of murder in this case, was you acted out of what you believed to be reasonable force ( Which they can't prove) Or you attacked a fleeing suspect.

I am amazed that a wannabe liberal poster wishes it were "unspeakable" to question the travelling way of life

I would be amazed had I said that, or anything like it. Happily I did not

What is wrong with disproportionate force? That is what the law allows

Because its disproportionate. The law does not allow for that, its literally what the law says.

SaucyJane

What I don't understand is why Irish Travellers are also classed as an 'ethnic group'.

'..therefore, subject to all the rights and protections under the Acts as enjoyed by all other minority ethnic communities'

I can understand why Gypsies/Roma/ Romany are but not IT's

Ah but Saucy if you label it a custom or belief or ethnic whatever it’s untouchable

Sharia law (mysogynistic and cruel)

Circumcision (child abuse)

Requiring females to cover up (mysogynistic and add forced marriage although that happens to men too.

Forcing girls and boys to leave school at 9 with no enforced home education ( child abuse)

Grooming raping and assaulting hundreds of girls (don’t investigate for fear or being called racist)

Mysogynistic and frankly disgusting treatment of women in the Labour Party ( sorry don’t annoy the LGBT ‘community

And so it goes on

You always gong the hard left and thr hard right of why party despise women and sometimes the women themselves don’t actually realise and support this nonsense

Mydog, I made it easy for your, I quoted the post I was answering when I put those scenarios forward. Why do you have so much difficulty in connecting the two? I never mentioned a TV, God only knows why you've dragged that in.

Just to spell it out, the post said "But yes I believe that you should be allowed to use deadly force against intruders in your home as you have no way of knowing what their intentions are." Is there any chance of your getting your head around the fact that, if it were the case that you could use deadly force against any intruder, it would be inherently dangerous because innocent people could get killed?

What I don't understand is why Irish Travellers are also classed as an 'ethnic group

Maybe you should do some research then, and you might find out?