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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

I'm trans, may I ask you a favour? Its about trans phobia.

143 replies

PeanutButterSquash · 10/04/2018 13:48

I've been trans for more than half of my life and was one of the first in my part of the UK to get a GRC (over ten years ago!).
I have unfortunately experienced transphobic attacks (from physical attacks that hospitalized me to career damaging bullying and lower level bullying too) many times in my life though I admit it gets less and less year on year.
Trans phobia can take many many forms and doesn't yet have a defined legal position (something I think should change).
Here are a few things that aren't trans phobic.

Being respectfully gender critical
Disagreeing with self ID.
Disagreeing with self ID'ing men in women's spaces (and vice versa).
Disagreeing with transwomen competing in female only sports (due to biological disadvantage) are a few things that I note are called transphobic here.
Respectful debate isn't transphobic. Disagreement isn't transphobic.
I think calling "transphobia" over any sign of disagreement, debate or gender critical beliefs is actually more harmful to me and people like me.
will anyone take trans phobia seriously if this is all it takes to be called a transphobe?

Aibu to ask that you do that favour for me, and stop shouting transphobia (on or offline) at gender critical feminists?

Thank you. Feel free to respond and as ever you can disagree with me. Smile

OP posts:
Theshittyendofthestick · 10/04/2018 13:52

Spot on Peanut!
I feel very strongly that everyone should be able to live their lives peacefully free from violence and abuse but when the same accusations of transphobia are cast towards people wishing to engage in discussion, the whole debate becomes ridiculous

SemperIdem · 10/04/2018 13:53

I think it’s really helpful that trans people like yourself with no agenda beyond living their lives safely and peacefully are speaking up on this issue. TRA’s are the problem here, not trans people as a whole, which all gender critical feminists recognise. I’ve been on a lot of the gender critical threads with you, under my previous username.

I’m sorry you have been attacked, nobody deserves that Flowers

womanhuman · 10/04/2018 13:54

pbs Flowers for the crap you’ve endured.

KarmaStar · 10/04/2018 13:55

Hi OP,
I apologise,but I don't understand what you are saying,what is you are asking AIBU about?

Pythoness · 10/04/2018 13:56

Best trans post I've read in ages OP

Mightymucks · 10/04/2018 13:56

Also sorry for the crap you’ve enjoyed. You sound like a pretty awesome person to go through that and still have concern about the impact of the trans agenda on other people. Flowers

Hygge · 10/04/2018 13:56

Hi Peanut

I'm sorry you've been the victim of attacks.

Your post has summed up how I feel about things, I do have concerns about Self-ID but those concerns don't mean I want to see you disrespected or harmed.

I feel there's a balance we haven't yet found in the Self-ID issue, and that balance will only come through discussion.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 10/04/2018 13:58

Hello OP, this post is very brave. And I assume so are you given your experiences.

user1487175389 · 10/04/2018 13:58

Agreed, OP.

FatBallsAndSunflowerSeeds · 10/04/2018 13:58

Thank you Peanut I agree with you totally. I wish you could live without abuse or harassment, and I hope the more vocal of the TRA's aren't making your life more difficult for you at the moment Thanks

Becauseimworthit79 · 10/04/2018 13:59

Thank you, peanut. I am sorry you had to endure the treatment you did for going about your own business.

I absolutely agree with the misuse of the word “transphobia” as a way of silencing those who want to discuss the issues on self id.

KanyeWesticle · 10/04/2018 14:01

PBS thank you.

I can't imagine what you've been through, and it belittles it's impact to then use the same word "transphobia" to label respectful disagreement. A bit like the term "facebook rape" grates for those who have been victim of rape.

Misgendering is not literal violence. Not the same thing one bit.

Becauseimworthit79 · 10/04/2018 14:01

@Karmastar, this 👇🏻

Aibu to ask that you do that favour for me, and stop shouting transphobia (on or offline) at gender critical feminists?

Original poster
PeanutButterSquash · 10/04/2018 14:02

KarmaStar

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear Blush
What I'm trying to say is, calling transphobia at reasoned discussion devalues and harms people, I worry this will mean transphobia isn't taken seriously (it sometimes isn't as it is!) And I feel in some ways, particularly as I've seen it on mumsnet, the word transphobia is being used to silence discussion and debate. I don't want to be used as a meat shield so people can avoid debate and silence others, nor do the trans people I know. There are many examples of this behavior unfortunately, I think many are trying to be liberal and "live and let live" though are likely misguided.

OP posts:
Catspaws · 10/04/2018 14:05

What would your response be to the many trans women who do consider lots of things on your list transphobic?

I know you aren't claiming to be the spokeswoman for all trans women and I appreciate that you have absolutely as much right as anyone to give your views and explain your choices etc.

I've read many of your posts on this site and while I've always thought you're very respectful and engaging, you haven't convinced me.

I care about trans rights a lot and I have read and engaged with the views of many women (both cis and trans). And that has what has led me to my current position, which is to be in favour of self-ID and to agree that sex and gender and not the same thing and don't always correlate.

I'm entitled to argue with people who don't hold these views. Everyone is entitled to debate these things, to make a case for their views, and to criticise other views they consider unacceptable.

You can ask people to stop, but nobody is obliged to listen to you. Your voice is just as important as anyone else's, but it isn't more important.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 10/04/2018 14:07

I think yelling transphobia at women debating things like self-id minimises some of the awful transphobia people like you have experienced.

I'm a gender-critical feminist and I still want a kinder world where everyone is safe and free to live their lives as they choose (whilst maintaining sex segregated spaces when it matters)

womanhuman · 10/04/2018 14:08

catspaws, which things on that list would you consider to be transphobic?

Original poster
PeanutButterSquash · 10/04/2018 14:09

My response would be a debate or discussion Catspaws. Unless that means I'm transphobic too?
I don't think it's appropriate nor should it be encouraged to call someone transphobic for disagreeing with you or having a different stance on something like self ID. of course, people are free to have whatever stance they want, but to attempt to shut down others is aggressive and not in the ethos of any movement I wish to be part of.
I also don't know anyone in real life who has the view that someone for example disagreeing with self ID is transphobic and should be shut down. Trans people included. I'm sure they exist but I'd struggle to emphathize with those views.

OP posts:
FencingFightingTorture35 · 10/04/2018 14:12

And that has what has led me to my current position, which is to be in favour of self-ID and to agree that sex and gender and not the same thing and don't always correlate

To my mind that means you're saying gender is something fixed and internal, when in my view the evidence says it's just a social construct.

And do they ever truly correlate? I am stereotypically feminine in many ways. I also loved playing with boy's toys as a child, I climbed trees and wanted to go off and fight in a war. As a grown up I knit a lot but also wear trousers and like beer. I spent a lot of my adolescence wanting to get rid of my breasts (surgically). I like them now. Does my gender therefore correlate with my sex? Am I trans? Very few of us are stereotypes, surely. There are as many genders as there are personalities.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 10/04/2018 14:13

Gender critical feminists don't agree that sex and gender are the same thing either, catspaws, that's the whole point.

It's the conflation and confusion of sex and gender in law and the policies of various organisations that is causing most of the trouble.

Catspaws · 10/04/2018 14:13

Why would you say I think you're transphobic? You're just saying the same thing as me - that it's ok to debate when you have different views!

I don't think calling someone transphobic shuts down the debate anymore than calling someone a funfem, a handmaiden or a man pretending to be a woman (these all being things that I've been called in discussions on trans rights on this site).

Catspaws · 10/04/2018 14:14

Also - why are you posting here when you don't have an AIBU? Just for traffic? This would be better moved to the feminism or LGBT board.

ClaryFray · 10/04/2018 14:16

I agree!

I'm called transphobic because I think self ID is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm sick of people saying I'm tarring all trans people in with a few sick fucks. But, I think that self ID is the wrong way to go.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 10/04/2018 14:16

Aibu to ask that you do that favour for me, and stop shouting transphobia (on or offline) at gender critical feminists?

Respectfully, there is an AIBU

Original poster
PeanutButterSquash · 10/04/2018 14:18

Catspaws

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I was responding to your first question.
What would your response be to the many trans women who do consider lots of things on your list transphobic?

Would I then be transphobic if I disagreed with them?
Or am I allowed to disagree because I'm trans? Its mindboggling, honestly. If you can't answer that's fine. But I'd like to know where the line is drawn.
I haven't seen the comments you refer to, but I don't think they're right either and would certainly say something if I was to see one.

OP posts: