I'm trans, may I ask you a favour? Its about trans phobia.

[PeanutButterSquash]

I've been trans for more than half of my life and was one of the first in my part of the UK to get a GRC (over ten years ago!).
I have unfortunately experienced transphobic attacks (from physical attacks that hospitalized me to career damaging bullying and lower level bullying too) many times in my life though I admit it gets less and less year on year.
Trans phobia can take many many forms and doesn't yet have a defined legal position (something I think should change).
Here are a few things that aren't trans phobic.

Being respectfully gender critical
Disagreeing with self ID.
Disagreeing with self ID'ing men in women's spaces (and vice versa).
Disagreeing with transwomen competing in female only sports (due to biological disadvantage) are a few things that I note are called transphobic here.
Respectful debate isn't transphobic. Disagreement isn't transphobic.
I think calling "transphobia" over any sign of disagreement, debate or gender critical beliefs is actually more harmful to me and people like me.
will anyone take trans phobia seriously if this is all it takes to be called a transphobe?

Aibu to ask that you do that favour for me, and stop shouting transphobia (on or offline) at gender critical feminists?

Thank you. Feel free to respond and as ever you can disagree with me.

I believe transphobia should be as much of a crime as racism and homophobic attacks and misogynistic attacks aren't. Interestingly. For some reason.

Perfectly I think it's completely understandable to feel those emotions around this.

MrsTerry

I also think misogynistic attacks should be a hate crime and that our protected characteristics as a sex should be upheld in law.

"Disagreeing with self ID'ing men in women's spaces (and vice versa)."

How is it not transphobic to disagree with a trans person's right to self identify their gender? Or is this the old "I'm not 'scared' of trans people so it can't possibly be a phobia" chestnut?

Because these spaces have been set up on the basis of biological sex, balsamic.

People can identify with a gender, they can wear what they like, and have the right to live free from discrimination, but they cannot change to the opposite biological sex.

When did we replace 'ist' for 'phobe' on everything? Can someone explain the grammatical aspect if possible? Surely it should be transist* like racist? Genuine question.

What is the right to self-identify gender Balsamic?
Self identify away if you mean a label you give yourself to describe how you feel. But if you think this feeling gives you a right to simply identify as a different sex and enter single sex spaces - no way.

How is it not transphobic to disagree with a trans person's right to self identify their gender?

That's sort of the point. With self ID ANYONE can say they're a woman, not just trans people!

And, frankly, anyone can identify as any gender they please as far as I am concerned. Gender is meaningless twaddle so fill your boots. It's SEX that's important, should be protected in law and can't be chaged.

I am a supporter of trans rights. I agree with you peanut that transphobia is shouted too much. However I do feel that transphobes do often hijack the more reasoned debates on here- there is way too much extremism on both sides which means sensible debate just isn't happening

I'm entitled to argue with people who don't hold these views. Everyone is entitled to debate these things, to make a case for their views, and to criticise other views they consider unacceptable

You're not entitled to call us transphobic when we aren't though.

How is it not transphobic to disagree with a trans person's right to self identify their gender

The can self identify their gender all they want but they (and we and I) can't self identify their sex. Its not transphobic to tell the truth and I'm sick of being told it is.

@PoppyCracker
When did we replace 'ist' for 'phobe' on everything? Can someone explain the grammatical aspect if possible? Surely it should be transist* like racist? Genuine question.

Good question. Language is SO important. I think it is crucial to this debate.

I'm just going to give you my theory - it's speculation.

Racist = prejudiced against people of a different race.
Trans-ist therefore would also mean "prejudiced against" trans people.

Phobic = irrationally scared of.
Transphobic = silly people irrationally scared of gender difference.
(Where "silly people" = "silly women" primarily.)

It's control via language to demean. It's making sure even the insults are extremely insulting...

@balsamicbarbara
How is it not transphobic to disagree with a trans person's right to self identify their gender? Or is this the old "I'm not 'scared' of trans people so it can't possibly be a phobia" chestnut?

Do forgive the intrusion, but I Advanced Searched you to check you were a genuine poster not a TRA drop-in as I didn't recognise your posting name. You've got loads of posts but these caught my eye from a thread about Jo Cox's husband:

Hmm, I just think a lot of the problems men cause is due to their sex drives and testosterone. Men who have just had it away are not the ones out fighting or pillaging and a lot of them are too weak willed or stupid to ignore their urges it seems.

Also you rarely see women doing the stupid crap men do so there must be some biological basis for such stupidity. What else but testosterone if we have the same brains biologically?

So do you think that once trans people (male-born) can self-ID gender and become 'women' that they will no longer be subject to their 'urges' and testosterone? Because it would be 'transphobic' to suggest otherwise?

What women are saying is that self-ID will potentially remove any necessity for medical proof that a person is altering their body or hormones to become more aligned with the opposite sex. That "there must be some biological basis for such stupidity" (where "stupidity" = male violence).

Have you signed the petition? You might want to consider it.

How is it not transphobic to disagree with a trans person's right to self identify their gender?

Because that's not actually what transphobia is.

PerfectlySymmetricalButtocks

It can be extremely upsetting when you're misgendered repeatedly and on purpose.
Though while feelings should be treated with sensitivity and respect, it doesn't mean we should stop discussions about the topic.
I don't think anybody here believes most or all transwomen are rapists. I certainly don't though I have major concerns with self ID and don't want it to become a reality.
RatRolyPoly
I agree transphobia should be called out and when I received a transphobic comment here the poster was rounded on and the transphobic comment v swiftly deleted, so I'd like to think most here would pull them up on it
However, many many many more times I see very reasonable posters and opinions deemed trans phobic as well as several attempts to silence others with the word. I've been called trans phobic (how does that work? Am I scared of myself?) the few times I've ventured onto a thread but not immediately said "I'm trans".

Ereshkigal

Funnily enough I agree. I can definitely see a world where I can't talk about my surgery or transition because it might offend non binaries/unicorns/autogynephiles who can't/won't/don't transition for whatever reason.

Sorry Ereshkigal that was to your comment before last on the end of the previous page.

balsamicbarbara

Well, how is it trans phobic? I can see the argument for something that doesn't effect others for example, decent support for trans people in the workplace, or a gender neutral pronoun introduced for titles. So not just ms Mrs, miss and Mr.

However the topic of self ID effects women, a lot, as well as transpeople. If if was just a trans persons rights we were talking about I find it hard to believe anyone would have an issue with it, but we're not talking about that. Self ID doesn't give me the right to do anything I can't already do (Rightly or wrongly) as a holder of a GRC.
But it gives a protected right to fetishists and takes away the right to complain (from pretty much everyone who's not trans)
There are men that are even obsessed with trying to get used tampons and pads, there are men that wank to the sound of a tampon being unwrapped. There are men who won't DO anything, but will get off on the fact they're there and causing harm/discomfort to women or girls and those women and girls are powerless to say/do anything about it. Much like rape is about power, I think sexual harassment and intimidation is too.
Is it target that has reported a 300 percent I increase in sexual assaults since it became a free for all? Very interesting thread about that somewhere here!

You're not entitled to call us transphobic when we aren't though.

I don't know who you're referring to when you say "us" and "we". Can you elaborate?

The way you've phrased it makes it sound like it isn't the overuse of the word you're concerned with, but rather that you would request people stop calling you personally transphobic - is that fair? It's just you said noone has the "right" to say that to you.

Except they're perfectly entitled to say that, aren't they? I mean it might be unpleasant to know someone thinks that of you/your opinions, and of course it can be damaging to be on the receiving end of such allegations - particularly if they're wrong. But if they are wrong, you'll be able to justify position, right? And look, this is an anonymous internet forum; we have very little to fear from what people think of our opinions, so long as our conduct remains within the law. So whilst it can be damaging to be accused of being something you're not, I don't think it's especially damaging on here, is it.

And of course it is rather the point of such a discussion forum that you should be able to say "I think a transwoman is a type of man, not a type of woman" (for example), someone else might say "I think that makes you a transphobe", and then you hash it all out. Voila, discussion!

Hashtag no debate works both ways.

If i ignore the incredibly patronising tone of that post, i still maintain a debate should be able to take place without namecalling

You are transphobic- is not debating

That is transphobic or what you have said is/can be considered transphobic - is debating

Is that to me Rufus? I don't think my tone was patronising I'm prepared to be wrong though.

I completely agree about name-calling, but I do think we all need to keep an eye on our own personal prejudices, and that when we discuss and debate our opinions we invite other people to critique our prejudices too - or what they perceive them to be.

Personally I don't like being called a handmaiden of the patriarchy - I think there are less "name-cally" ways to express the same sentiment, but I have genuinely gone away from those discussions and examined my motives.

Ah, I've just reread your last sentence and realise we agree. Yes, it's all in the delivery isn't it.

@RatRolyPoly And look, this is an anonymous internet forum; we have very little to fear from what people think of our opinions, so long as our conduct remains within the law. So whilst it can be damaging to be accused of being something you're not, I don't think it's especially damaging on here, is it.

Well, not unless you count all the special groups being set up to specifically hunt down and identify people from the scraps of info pieced together on social media, and then use that against them to get them sacked or threatened or whatever in real life ("Doxxing"). And employers are showing that the fear of being labelled transphobic/TRA action is enough to comply.

That is happening. In what civilised debate does that happen?

The problem I think is that 'transphobic' carries so much baggage as a word. It means both to the user, and increasingly to the wider community, that the person is in some way immoral or politically incorrect or hateful and it is thus a way of shutting down debate. It is a word similar to 'nazi' in that context. 'You are transphobic' is a pretty powerful sentence given its social context. It's best avoided I think because to do so would improve the integrity of the debate beyond accusations. It's also a stand-in for more nuanced debate and means that the accuser rarely has to explain their points beyond the quick accusation. I have less of a problem with 'I think that x is a transphobic position to take because of y', where y is clearly articulated. It is also the case that women's claims or statements of misogyny or sexism or discrimination or fear of male violence carry less social power and are rarely taken as seriously. This is indicative of the gendered power relations to women's detriment that pervade the whole issue. It is not a level playing field because of the lack of power that women as a sex have traditionally had and which plays out here.

If someone said 'what you just said is/can be considered transphobic'

I might have a little think about it...i say might because i have said i am against self ID and apparently thats transphobic. Someone mentioned salking about the vaginal damage caused by childbirth and they were called transphobic

But someone calls me transphobic...i just think they are a twat to be honest . They have no interest in debating or educating they just ....ahh no fuckit they are twats

Happy to agree this for 90% of name calling

Name call...and you just lost

That is happening. In what civilised debate does that happen?

No, this is definitely not something that happens in a civilised debate. I don't know much about what's going on in this regard so I'm going to go away and look into this further. Thanks shotsfired!

Or what yetanother said

I think its similar...but without the swearing and references to genitalia

Bollocks is another favourite of mine

it is thus a way of shutting down debate.

YY.