78 pensioner arrested for fatally stabbing burglar in his own home

[SShaming]

2 burglars break into a 78 year old man’s home armed with screwdriver.

Forces owner into the kitchen whilst one of them goes upstairs.

A fight ensues, leaving pensioner with injuries to his arm and burglary is fatally stabbed. Perhaps with his own screwdriver although this is TBC.

Police arrest pensioner.

On what planet is this right?

There has been a recent case and the home owner was found not guilty.

There is a gang targeting the elderly in Ireland at the monent, they've carried outsavage robberies it is the lowest of the lowest crime to steal and beat an elderly person.

I hope the man gets all the support he needs.

I keep a sledge hammer by me and wouldn't hesitate to use it to inflict injury/pain only - albeit serious injury because I would aim for the ankles, then the crotch and then the face - nose. However, I would expect to be questioned and arrested if my use of it resulted in a death.

juicey Was that in the last year or so there was a similar case? If I remember rightly the householder was maybe in his 30’s or so?

I don’t remember the outrage on here for that one!

It's saddening that so many people seem to be so ignorant of how our criminal justice system works and why it works the way it does. It's doubly saddening that so many people are expressing outrage that the police should dare to investigate a fatal stabbing and arrest the suspect to facilitate that investigation.

None of us yet know anything with reasonable certainty other than the fact a man has been stabbed to death. We (especially those of you foaming at the mouth over the injustice of the police arresting the homeowner) don't know beyond reasonable doubt if the victim even was a burglar or if he was threatening or using violence. Words and phrases like "on suspicion of" and "alleged burglar" seem to go right over some people's heads.

Regardless of what any of us think of criminals, we don't live in a society were citizens are allowed to dish out their own corporal or capital punishments, and thank god for that. We do not live in a society where the police are allowed to decide the innocence or guilt of individuals, and thank god for that also. If you don't like that there are countries better suited to you than the UK. They're more commonly known as police states, totalitarian regimes or failed states.

Those scum should not have been breaking into his house, the law is a joke.

Well that is a contradiction. Which is it?

Either the law should be followed by everyone or no one, you dont get to pick and choose and especially not on the back of a couple of headlines and no actual facts in your possession

I keep a sledge hammer by me and wouldn't hesitate to use it to inflict injury/pain only - albeit serious injury because I would aim for the ankles, then the crotch and then the face - nose. However, I would expect to be questioned and arrested if my use of it resulted in a death

I'd expect you to be convicted of manslaughter or murder. A defence of self-defence rarely succeeds where the accused is deemed by the court to have pre-armed themselves.

What TooTrueToBeGood said - it is perfectly acceptable to use reasonable and necessary force to defend yourself but the case has to be proven. Tony Martin was charged because he shot his burglars in the back while the were running away. The police should definitely be investigating this case properly and we shouldn't be jumping to conclusions before the facts are known.

pyong are you their parents by chance. Yes they are scum breaking into a vulnerable pensioners home. What happened is an occupational hazard.

Nicknacky
in your example, I would argue that my DH could call the police, try to gather the kids and lock them in a safer room whilst I would get my firearm and be ready to defend the staircase. No safe way to escape if there are criminal downstairs. (if I was brave enough to do that, and I did have a firearm which I don't)

You must know that in the time it takes for the police to arrive, a lot of nasty things can happen to a family.

The only non-reasonable response to a burglar would be the one endangering your own family or innocent people. Booby trapping your home, and risk endangering emergency services for example that is not reasonable. I can't see what's wrong in ending up killing an intruder who shouldn't be there in the first place.

It makes me think that we are ridiculously under-protecting ourselves in my home, we don't even have safety shutters, so you just need to smash a window to get in!

Valanice yes I remember that thread and that comment! I've always thought it was the most mumsnet thing I ever did read.

And all the weeping hearts on here, bear in mind you have no real idea how you would behave if you honestly felt your family or your life were in danger. Thirty years ago a sneak thief entered our kitchen and stole a wallet and handbag. Little monetary loss, major inconvenience, and it took me a while to recover my equilibrium. Police suspected known young tearaway on local estate. There is no end to what harm I wished to have inflicted on him, and I was delighted to hear he'd been caught burgling elsewhere and thrown over a wall. That's why we have rule of law, and don't allow victims to take things into their own hands.

Nowadays I just feel said that he trashed his life when still too young to really understand long term consequences.

so if we don’t agree with the death of burglars we must be their parents?.........

I’ve heard it all now.

A sledge hammer is allowed in a household. I'm not pre-arming myself. I could equally squirt bleach into the eyes thereby causing extreme pain and possibly blindness. Am I pre-arming myself with bleach?

I could creep up and shout loudly BOO! Surprise them and the person could die from a heart attack.

ikeep Your imaginary scenarios are getting too far fetched to give a reasoned reply to.

I keep a sledge hammer by me
keep a few other tools and some piece of work being done so you can reasonably explain why you happened to have that sledge hammer handy, by sheer luck!, if you ever need to use it. I hope you won't!

to answer the poster if the victim even was a burglar or if he was threatening or using violence. there should be no OR. If he was a burglar, he was by definition threatening and should be assumed ready to use violence.

Whatever the scenarios surrounding this the fact is this.

If a death ensues then the police must investigate!

The about the Tony Martin case is not whether it is comparable or not. The point is the facts about about this case are unknown. They could be similar to Tony Martin or clear case of self defence. The first stage to establish the facts is for the Police to investigate.

Nicknacky
if you hear a window being smashed downstairs, will you honestly call the police and hide under your bed with your kids until they arrive? How is that real life?

Where am I supposed to put the sledge hammer? Under lock and key?

It's readily available in all DIY stores. I don't need a licence for it either.

ikeep I have no idea what I would do. Calling the police would be my first port of call though.

And not every housebreaking is committed by smashing glass, most want in and out as quietly as possible.

Of course it is right that he has been arrested! A person has been killed and the due process of law must be followed.
He MAY not be charged with murder depending on the results of the investigation.
His arrest is merely the first step in a process.

whilst asleep with his wife in his own home

As one of the burglars went upstairs, the man was probably desperate to defend his wife also. He had no way of knowing if that other man was armed too, or what he might do.

Of course the situation has to be properly investigated.

Aero Dont be so bloody ridiculous!

Wanting the law to be applied across the board does not make me an apologist for criminals. Surely that is what we should all want? I dont want to live in a country with trial by media.

If you want criminals who break into peoples houses to be dealt with to the full letter of the law then you must accept that those sames laws apply to this man. It must be invesigated and if (when) it is proved to be self defence, he is protected and proven innocent of murder.

This is why dangerous items are stored strategically (but in their groups perfectly legally) in our house. I could very quickly arm myself and be ready to defend my children in their bedrooms at the stairs while dh phones the police or the other way around. If you break into my home I will take that as a direct threat to my children’s lives and I will protect them with any force needed.

A sledge hammer is allowed in a household. I'm not pre-arming myself. I could equally squirt bleach into the eyes thereby causing extreme pain and possibly blindness. Am I pre-arming myself with bleach?

I have a vague memory of a policeman advising that people who keep baseball bats by the door, or under the bed without good reason could be charged. English law does not recognise lawful possession of anything "for self defence" as far as I know (not being a lawyer, nor playing one on TV).