78 pensioner arrested for fatally stabbing burglar in his own home

[SShaming]

2 burglars break into a 78 year old man’s home armed with screwdriver.

Forces owner into the kitchen whilst one of them goes upstairs.

A fight ensues, leaving pensioner with injuries to his arm and burglary is fatally stabbed. Perhaps with his own screwdriver although this is TBC.

Police arrest pensioner.

On what planet is this right?

the sad thing, if I get stabbed in my home, not much will happen to the burglar, a few years in jail in that.
If one of my dog bites an intruder to defend us (and they really aren't attack dogs!), we will have to put them down.

We all know how things work in this country, and it's sad.

A bullet in self defense[sic] is perfectly reasonable.

May be, may not - hence we need an investigation.

Shooting a burglar whilst you are in panic is not murder, that's the point.

Well it might be murder actually.

People do completely random things in accidents or in traumatic situation, it's exactly the same when they are under uninvited thread. Stabbing someone is even harder, I feel so sorry for the poor guy who had to be in such close contact.

I feel sorry for the victim, but I don't believe being a victim of a burglar gives anyone carte blance to kill the burglar and not have the facts investigated

are jury trials still a thing in uk?

its scary, some previous posters might end up on one

I have a vague memory of a policeman advising that people who keep baseball bats by the door, or under the bed without good reason could be charged

I heard something similar and, I have always been advised to use "non-weapons" to defend myself. Bleach from the en-suite would be acceptable. We are not even allowed pepper spray or equivalent in this country! We can carry a whistle, lucky us.

I keep a sledge hammer by me

Haha. You're fucked for several reasons.

The acceleration of the 9kg head will be slow so the 'attacker' will simply move out of the way.

The optimal distance for using a sledgehammer is narrow. If you miss because the attacker steps back then you are likely going to keep spinning, turning your back on them or they step towards you and you 'bump' them with the low energy handle.

A heavy blunt instrument is a disadvantage when fighting an unarmed, likely stronger and on-their-feet opponent.

For a larger man, a smaller hammer could be an advantage. You're pretty stupid to think you could use it effectively though.

I keep a D Cell Maglite next to my side of the bed but would stand and shout a lot; physical confrontation would be the last option. DH (big and trained) keeps a 12" machete in his drawer* but is aware it's a calculated risk even for him.

*we aren't in the UK.

When I first lived in the ME someone entered my house when I wasn't there and my lurcher nipped him. After a meeting with the Captain, it was agreed that the intruder would apologise for coming in and the dog would a apologise for biting (caused a bruise, no blood) they said this would be the end of it unless either party wanted to take it to court. The dog was brought to the police station and was wagging his tail, the guy apologised and we all went home. I know this isn't the real way to solve things but it was a bizarre yet nice way to somethings. In Saudi 😀

If one of my dog bites an intruder to defend us (and they really aren't attack dogs!), we will have to put them down.

"Under section 3(1A) of the 1991 Act a person is not guilty of an offence where the dog is dangerously out of control with respect to a trespasser who is in, or entering, their home, whether the owner is present or not."

"In deciding whether to make a destruction order the court must consider the temperament of the dog, its past behaviour and whether the owner or person in charge at the time is fit to be in charge of a dog."

It honestly doesn't take long to find real facts rather than just guessing.

ikeep Because pepper spray is a noxious substance and falls under the firearms legislation which prevents its ownership in the U.K.

A legal friend who lived in SA for a while has beautifully arty heavy metal "sculptures" around her home. She has photos of them surrounded by flowers etc to show how arty they are and how long she has had them if she needed to in court. Sadly i think more people will start doing the same.

It honestly doesn't take long to find real facts rather than just guessing.
I am not guessing, and it happened to friends of ours. they HAD to put the dog down. All that poor pup ever did was defending his owners.

So a court insisted on the dog getting put down after a intruder was bitten? Bollocks.

In Saudi

Not really a place I'd care to emulate in any way,

I can't give you too much details because it's not my story, it wasn't my dog! All I can tell you is that my friend cried for weeks and their beautiful dog was put down.

And having read the legislation it is clear that in those circumstances a dog may not be deemed to be out of control. So your statement is wrong.

"Reasonable force" may be used to defend yourself in your own home. That doesn't really take account of the fact that in such circumstances, the person who is confronting the burglars (I believe there were three) will be in a state of sheer panic, adrenaline flowing, not thinking about what constitutes reasonable force, very much open to interpretation anyway. If disturbed whilst asleep in your own home I imagine many would try to defend themselves with whatever is closest to hand. How do any of us know how we would react in such circumstances. Having read about the university lecturer beaten to a pulp by the gang that invaded his house, plus other people who have been tied up and tortured whilst being robbed. 3 burglars don't break into a house with good intentions, how could this man know whether they would have just legged it with stolen goods or beaten the shit out of him and his wife, or possibly killed them.

if you hear a window being smashed downstairs, will you honestly call the police and hide under your bed with your kids until they arrive? How is that real life?

This would be my plan! Everyone into one room, barricade the door, and ring the police. The burglars are welcome to help themselves to whatever is outside of the room because it's all insured and can be replaced but I'm not endangering my family by going toe to toe with someone desperate enough to break into a house and I'm certainly not running in there with a hammer like a crazed pyjama-clad Rambo. It's not worth it. Weapons can just as easily be turned against you so you'd have to be very confident that you've got the upper hand before using one otherwise all you'll do is escalate the situation.

I remember reading on here once about someone who was burgled and they held a boiling kettle over the baby, threatened to pour the whole lot out unless they were given cards and PIN numbers. What good would a sledgehammer or baseball bat do there?

Someone upthread said that killing someone is illegal whatever the circumstances. This is not correct.

If you are defending yourself you are allowed to use reasonable force in all the circumstances. That can include killing the person attacking you, but only if it was reasonable to do so.

This accords with common sense, which is pretty rare for the criminal law.

Unfortunate these days policemen are instructed to arrest you whatever the circumstances if anyone gets badly hurt or killed. This seems very unfair in this case, but we don’t know all the circumstances yet.

An arrest has very serious consequences even if you are never prosecuted. About thirty countries around the world including the USA will deny you a visa if you have ever been arrested. There are also problems with insurance, car rental and getting a bank account.

In this case, we don’t know the details so perhaps best to wait.

About thirty countries around the world including the USA will deny you a visa if you have ever been arrested

That's bollocks. You can't travel to the USA without a VISA using the ESTA programme but that doesn't mean you won't get a visa.

I don't know about "reasonable force" .

But I firmly believe that finding a complete stranger in your own home should be in and of itself grounds for a lower test than if the incident had happened (say) in a pub.

DWs DF (who was the reason she flattened the wheelchair thief) used to teach self defence. Lesson one was "how to run away". Which is probably good advice if you are not in your own home.

Where I struggle a bit, is when you are in your own home ? Are you expected to leave it when confronted ?

About thirty countries around the world including the USA will deny you a visa if you have ever been arrested.

For the US this isn't true. But it will probably mean you have to apply for a full visa and can't use the waiver scheme.

What is reasonable force will depend on the circumstances so it will had different standards where incident happened in your home v in the pub.

If you don't want to die, don't enter someone else's home to burgle them! Bastards absolutely got what he deserved

I just feel very sorry for this man (assuming the facts are as reported). He went to bed in his own home and through no fault of his own was put in a position of having to defend himself from armed intruders, has to deal with the fact that he has taken someone's life and is now in police custody. It is also being reported that he was himself injured and I'm sure he was also extremely frightened. Who knows how it will impact on him mentally. And he didn't ask for any of this.

Reasonable force, here we are, the case I cited so man times I knew it by heart. Palmer.
The general principle is that the law allows only reasonable force to be used in the circumstances and, what is reasonable is to be judged in the light of the circumstances as the accused believed them to be (whether reasonably or not). In assessing whether a defendant had used only reasonable force, Lord Morris in Palmer v R [1971] AC 814, felt that a jury should be directed to look at the particular facts and circumstances of the case. His Lordship made the following points:

• A person who is being attacked should not be expected to "weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his necessary defensive action".
• If the jury thought that in the heat of the moment the defendant did what he honestly and instinctively thought was necessary then that would be strong evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken.
• A jury will be told that the defence of self-defence will only fail if the prosecution show beyond reasonable doubt that what the accused did was not by way of self-defence

The law cuts those who use the defence plenty of slack and doesn't expect them to be acting with fine objectivity.
I met some burglars in my legal career who had had pretty terrible lives, think in terms of being sent by your prostitute mother whose boyfriends kept beating you up to live with your heroin dealing uncle who got you addicted..... very few people actually want a life of crime.

@ChardonnaysPrettySister

You didn't even read your own link did You?

"The police may not attend burglaries."

The key word being may and that was an article from a few years back. The police do attend domestic burglaries. Only the tabloids say differently