78 pensioner arrested for fatally stabbing burglar in his own home

[SShaming]

2 burglars break into a 78 year old man’s home armed with screwdriver.

Forces owner into the kitchen whilst one of them goes upstairs.

A fight ensues, leaving pensioner with injuries to his arm and burglary is fatally stabbed. Perhaps with his own screwdriver although this is TBC.

Police arrest pensioner.

On what planet is this right?

We don't even know yet how the home owner will plead, and that depends on the investigation

It's entirely possible the inquest returns a verdict of "lawful killing" - which should remove the need for a criminal trial.

Coroners courts have juries too.

he might plead guilty to manslaughter. That would be the case if he grabbed a kitchen knife and lashed out with it

no it wouldn't.

I think the fact that he is a pensioner is quite pertinent really. Given that the man he killed is a career criminal who made his money robbing and defrauding pensioners.

Pleading guilty to manslaughter would be daft, surely, if it was self defense?

His age could well be relevant. But I don’t like the use of the word “pensioner” or “OAP” to describe older people in any circumstances. It is patronizing and ageist.

If someone is attacking you you have the right to defend yourself even if that means the other person is killed, if what happened is that this burglar went at the man with the screwdriver and in the struggle to only way the man could defend himself was to stab the burglar with it then according to the law he has not broken it.

Patronising to describe a 78 year old as a pensioner??? Heard it all now.

I'm saying that because we have no idea whether self-defence is a possibility. For example if the burglar wasn't threatening him with the screwdriver at the time when he was stabbed. If the pensioner's actions were liable to be considered disproportionate, then that might be the advice he's given.

As yet we have no idea.

Not patronizing to describe him as a pensioner. Patronizing to call him “the pensioner” instead of using his name.

We're saying 'pensioner' because we're also saying 'the burglar'. It's easier.

You are allowed to defend yourself with proportionate force if you have a reasonable belief that you, your property or your loved ones are in danger. You don't actually have to wait for the other person to strike the first blow. The law will also take into account that a person may strike out with more than necessary force, or use something as a weapon, out of fear. The relative physical capabilities of the 2 parties is also considered when deciding what is proportionate or not.

Death does not necessarily mean unreasonable force.
a)Plenty of deaths occur when an action which was designed to deter/repel catches the person wrongly.
b)Death can occur if an actiont hat would simply hurt a typical average person causes the death of someone who is particularly susceptible
c)If you are in a "Him or Me" situation then the death of Him is not unreasonable of it is the only alternative to the Death of Me

We don't know.

I take SaucyJane s point about his background and that society as a whole needs to sort this out but I still think that no-one can be unaware of the damage they are doing to someone if they go into their home and take stuff - perticularly if aggravated.

I have been both seriously sexually assaulted and burgled - and truly the burglary was worse. (Not talking about other's experiences but that is the truth for me). I am sick of the light sentencing, lack of investigation and dismissal of this crime as if it is inconsequential.

I'm saying that because we have no idea whether self-defence is a possibility.

If the initial reports - of finding an intruder in your own home - are correct, then even ...

if the burglar wasn't threatening him with the screwdriver at the time when he was stabbed.

it could still be self-defence. A threat need not be explicit - nor present - it's entirely how the person at the time perceived it.

If I discovered someone uninvited in my house late at night carrying a weapon - irrespective of where that weapon was pointed - I'd damn well feel threatened.

Self defence can encompass a pre-emptive strike ... ask the police.

@BarbarianMum yes maybe, that's what the investigation will hopefully establish. The problem is that using a knife/screwdriver to stab someone always carries a serious risk to their life.

I've often heard it advised that it's unwise to use a knife to defend yourself because of the serious risk to your own life as well as to your attacker's life.

If there had been a scuffle and the burglar had knocked his head against the table and got killed, self-defence would be much easier to establish.

Sorry - full of typos!

You are allowed to defend yourself with proportionate force if you have a reasonable belief that you, your property

Sorry, but I really, really hope that English law doesn't place the value of property above human life. I don't want this to become a country where four robbers were stealing the wheels off a car and the householder managed to shoot one dead, and when the police attend they are cross with the householder ...

Why didn't you shoot them all ? Now we have to find them.

Because that happened to a friends father, in Kenya.

Ridiculous if he is sent down. This man acted in self defence. The burglar lost his rights when he entered the mans house to burgle him.

I doubt he'll be sent down even if he's convicted of manslaughter. He would probably be given a suspended sentence.

I've often heard it advised that it's unwise to use a knife to defend yourself because of the serious risk to your own life as well as to your attacker's life.

As an ex special forces bod demonstrated to me in about 1/100000th of a second, most people haven't a clue how to handle a knife as a weapon.

(He got me to come at him, and in some process that was too quick for me to be aware of, I ended up with the "knife" (a wooden stick) across my throat).

heavy throwing things to cause a brief deflection whilst you leg it, was the best advice.

That said, since DW is wheelchair bound, I have every sympathy with the householder not fleeing. And I hope that the circumstances in this case - that he was his wifes carer - mean that any force judged to have been used will be weighed against the fact he was defending two people.

I don't like vigilante justice. However criminals - by definition - have to be prepared to live (and die) with the situations they create.

Anyone who receives a pension can be described as a pensioner regardless of age and at 78 its a fair bet he receives state pension.

The 'defending his property' line needs amending to 'defending himself and his very vulnerable wife'. I'm pretty sure property wasn't uppermost in the home owners' mind when faced with two violent men.

I'm currently more interested in the police tracking down the second man - the one that went upstairs to rob and terrify a woman with dementia and that left his 'mate' to die on the pavement whilst he drove off to save his own sorry arse.

I'm currently more interested in the police tracking down the second man

Indeed, this should be #1 priority, as they have already demonstrated they are a dangerous individual.

If they have any sense (which by definition no criminal has) they'd turn themselves in, pronto, rather than risk a situation where they are cornered by police (more of which will have guns than you'd think).

I was thinking more of them being cornered by members of the deceased's family.

How do you know it was unreasonable force Bertrand? You seemed to be on the criminals side, some of your comments are unbelievable. I think you would be happy if this OLDER PERSON went to jail, for defending himself and his wife.