"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL" ??????

[SuitedandBooted]

Yes, it is in the Daily Mail, but

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Just how the hell can Serco vouch for everyone who uses this service?
Women will be perfectly safe sharing a sleeping carriage with ANYONE as there is a button they can press?

Hello Mr Soames, Real World calling!!

Regardless of what the legal status of an individual is, I'm asking why you have this attitude towards women.

Stillscreaming you have provided no evidence whatsoever that men are not a danger to women.

That's the whole point. You cannot provide this evidence, because men ARE a danger to women.

Stillscreaming you have provided no evidence whatsoever that men are not a danger to women

Come on now, Stillscreaming knows a couple of trans people, which means all men are now no threat to women in any way. They have literally prevented all future rapes and assaults by knowing some kind people. That's how it works isn't it?

You cannot provide this evidence, because men ARE a danger to women.

Quite. Our lived experience as women tells us so. #MeToo for example.

Denying women's experiences of male sexual assault, abuse and harassment, minimising it, telling us it won't happen, hardly ever happens - that is an MRA tactic.

Self ID is new - even to the countries who have adopted it. There are very few studies on the impact on women's safety and security - you can't tell us it won't happen on a "Trust me, it'll be fine, the transwomen I know are nice" basis. We are afraid of the MEN who could abuse this. We know there are MEN who will abuse us.

That's why we want to keep female spaces segregated on the basis of biological sex.

Stillscreaming is all over the shop screaming for evidence but when given it it is never suitable or good enough. Asked to provide evidence of her claims she gives personal anecdotes and streams of chatter.

We had a lot of this on political threads during the run up to the US 2016 elections by certain types of omnipresent posters.

Jesus wept. It's so tedious.

Men, as a cohort, are danger to women. Irrefutably, undeniably.

Which makes women cautious and uncomfortable around them in situations where they have, either their knickers round their ankles, they can't escape, they are sleeping in a bed, or seeking sanctuary from being raped by those men.

What those men say, or feel, is firstly, irrelevant and nothing to do with women. And secondly, you don't take the word of a member of the cohort who is the entire problem.

Transwomen are men. It's not transphobic to say so. If you think it is, i can live with that. Im happy to live and let live, until a man with a penis wants to join me in female only spaces. Men should move over and be more tolerant of men who do not conform to gender stereotypes.

Stillscreaming didn't you ever stop to wonder why women you admired had suddenly turned into bigots? Didn't you think about what they were worried about? Or why women might not want men in their rape crisis centres or domestic violence shelters? Why are you centering the men/transwomen in these situations rather than the women?

I've got some transsexual friends. Normal people who've been living in their acquired gender for years, go to work, pay taxes, you wouldn't look at them twice on the street. They aren't potential sex offenders. I value them, I value their right to go about their lives, in the same way I go about mine.

Ok, I understand much more where you're coming from now. You are standing up for your friends, who pose no threat.

I just don't understand why you can't understand that despite that, some women are scared of men, for good reason. Yes there are lovely trans people who are just getting on with things. Do you know what, I know a couple of trans people just like that. They're really decent people. But anyone can see that some trans people are AGP. Some trans people are narcissistic. Some trans people enjoy threatening women. Some transpeople want to monopolise feminism. They are everywhere you look on Twitter and I maintain that there are enough of them that changes are being made to accomodate them which have the potential to harm women.

You are saying the equivalent of NAMALT. And yup, not all trans people are like that at all. There are some lovely men, too. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be concerned by the ones who aren't so lovely and who wish us harm.

If you don't go on Twitter, you don't get it.

I did post evidence but I'm happy to do so again...and again...and again:

www.mediamatters.org/stories-and-interests/bathroom-predator-myth

Why are you so dismissive of women's fears and feelings whilst validating those same fears and feelings if expressed by a transwoman Stillscreaming? Do you think the views of males are inherently more valuable than the views of women?

You have not posted evidence that men are not a danger to women.

I could post a link that says that redheared, lefthanded, glasses wearing, brown shoes abhorring gay men are not a danger to women, that still wouldn't mean that MEN AS A CLASS are not a danger to women.

I do not want men in women's space. I don't care if those men are deluded enough to think they're women. That is not women's problem.

And I can tell you again about sex offenders who dress as women. It’s going round in circles because you don’t or won’t see the point.

I have no problem with your friends, I’d probably like them if I knew them. I might even share a room with them once I knew them well. But a stranger with a penis? No.

I did post evidence but I'm happy to do so again...and again...and again:

Genuine question - if male violence in toilets, refuges, changing rooms etc etc is such a non-problem why do transwomen claim they need to use female facilities because they're not safe in the male ones?

Stillscreaming you said this: ask regular trans people if they really want phrases like 'chest feeding' used or if they want all women to stop talking about their bodies or some of the other things that do happen but aren't actually mainstream trans views at all?

I'm guessing that your friends and you believe other 'regular' trans people don't want or expect that so where were/are they when the Monroe Bergdorf's of this world spout these views, bearing in mind that MB was considered a perfectly suitable candidate and spokesperson for trans issues by the Labour Party? If they are against the prevailing TRA rhetoric why aren't they challenging it? Why are they not making their voices/views heard and taken into account?

Stillscreaming

You have stated before that you think transwomen are women. And on that basis, everything else flows.

Do you still stand by that statement?

Because when you post a link that puts women's safety in quotes ("safety"), it sounds horribly misogynistic.

Stillscreaming, have you linked to the right article there? That Media Matters article is about Alex Jones.

I've scrolled quite a way down, and it seems to just be a load of stuff about the US alt right movement, and what they're saying.

He does not speak for women's concerns here - we are not talking about anything Alex Jones says - we are talking about the very real risk that men can pose to women, as has been explained to you countless times.

Stillscreaming didn't you ever stop to wonder why women you admired had suddenly turned into bigots?

To be honest, they did both vote for Ed over David Miliband, so while we'd been basically on the same side, I wouldnt have totally trusted their judgement to back a winner. They're also both still all over Corbyn, I understand that they think it just 'a bit of anti semitism', like there's an acceptable level of anti semitism, that hasn't quite been reached yet.

There were other things that I just didn't want to be judgmental about at the time, I'm sure you know how it is...

But anyone can see that some trans people are AGP. Some trans people are narcissistic. Some trans people enjoy threatening women.

I'm aware of all of that. I don't think that trans people have to be perfect to be allowed civil liberties. I know awful women, terrible children, a couple of dodgy BEM people, I read about a gay father who murdered his child. I don't blame whole minority groups for the actions (or inactions) of their worst member, that's prejudice.

Media Matters is funded by CAP, I take a dim view of their outlook on many matters but I will read with interest.

But I'm not saying they shouldn't have civil liberties. Jesus wept. What an offensive thing to say. I just don't want them to be prioritised over vulnerable women. Can't you tell the difference?

It absolutely boils my blood to be told that I'm essentially a bigot and denying people their civil liberties. Sex segregation is not a prejudiced concept. I would gladly fight for trans people to have civil liberties, if they were actually denied them.

‘Back a winner’. How weird. Sounds like Owen Jones’ need for us all to pick the side so we can be on the right side of history. Personally I just focus on facts regardless of what the ‘winning side’ looks like.

I don't blame whole minority groups for the actions (or inactions) of their worst member, that's prejudice.

Except 98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. The cohort of which every transwoman is a member. With the added layer of fetishising womanhood belonging to the exact same subcohort.

You are actually naming the cohort and then the subcohort most likely harm or use women!

And I’ve never heard that men don’t have civil liberties. They even have the freedom to wear whatever they like.

When you frame the right of men with penises to share intimate space with women and girls as a 'civil liberties' issue you have seriously lost the plot. Or are goading. And fwiw I don't believe that you really think transwomen are women at all. If you did then you would be equally dismissive to the concerns of transwomen as you are to the concerns of women. The fact that you validate one whilst practically mocking the other suggests that you do in fact differentiate between them.

If they are against the prevailing TRA rhetoric why aren't they challenging it? Why are they not making their voices/views heard and taken into account?

It's funny when people don't do that, it's it?

I've had dogs abuse from people who've disagreed with my on trans issues. I'm often called a man, sometimes a TRA, I can't tell you how many reports there have been to MNHQ, accusing me of trolling or sockpuppeting, I've even been compared to a sex offender by one charmer, who's view had some overlap with your own. I could ask why didn't you stop her? Why didn't you say 'not in my name' or 'steady now'?

Why didn't any of you say that? Why don't you moderate the worst of your own side?

be allowed civil liberties

Which civil liberties are they being denied?
Because gender critical people are slowly being denied freedom of speech (via threats of violence) and freedom of association.