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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL" ??????

278 replies

SuitedandBooted · 01/04/2018 13:19

Yes, it is in the Daily Mail, but Shock

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Just how the hell can Serco vouch for everyone who uses this service?
Women will be perfectly safe sharing a sleeping carriage with ANYONE as there is a button they can press?

Hello Mr Soames, Real World calling!!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
TheGoldenBough · 02/04/2018 16:43

snowbird

How would you feel if you booked a woman only cabin to avoid sharing with A Man and found your cabinmate was a large, male bodied person with stubble, hairy arms, a male sounding voice and a masculine appearance (thinking back to the 'female' nurse the NHS provided to perform a woman's cervical smear test earlier this year)? This person might not even 'present' as a woman by maintaining a 'feminine' appearance. They might be completely indistinguishable from, let's say, a man. Because that's what self id is proposing - that there is no need to even 'present' as a woman.

Would you honestly feel more comfortable with this person in a woman's cabin just because they said, "It's alright, love. I'm a woman." than you would if you had to share with them in a men's carriage? Honestly?

Because I don't think you would. Not if male violence is your concern.

You'd have no way of knowing whether they actually believed they were a woman and felt it was where they belonged; or were just attempting to validate their identity; or whether they felt that their 'womanliness' or transstatus made them vulnerable to attack from a violent man; or whether they intended to lie in bed having a wank knowing that their woman cabinmate was uncomfortable; etc...

If you feel uncomfortable being around male bodied people when you are a male bodied person can you not see why a female bodied person might also feel uncomfortable around a male bodied person?

And if the only reason you want to sleep in a female cabin is because of the threat of male violence, do you not think the answer is to address male violence so that all spaces are safer for women and men who do not conform to standard discourses of masculinity?

titchy · 02/04/2018 16:44

I'd use a female cabin. Since I'd be at a far higher risk in a male cabin,

The irony...

Giving you the benefit of the doubt as you've obviously not really thought about it, but if you're at risk from a man, we are more so, being smaller and weaker. And your needs don't trump mine.

So who should the reasonable (let's hope...) guard move? You? Me? What if there's no more beds? What if the accommodation isn't just one night in a sleeper train? What if it's week on a guide camp? A year in a shared room in a hall of residence? Five years in a prison? Or are all those examples small and petty too? They probably are to you. They aren't to women.

jellyfrizz · 02/04/2018 16:45

Since I'd be at a far higher risk in a male cabin, and I'd stand out a whole lot more

Why? Call the guard and move if there’s a problem. Anyway there are no deceitful passengers on CalSleeper so you’d be fine.

AskBasil · 02/04/2018 16:49

"What I find irritating is how tiny issues like this tend to be blown out of all proportion. Being uncomfortable with who you're sharing with on a train is something a competant steward can solve on their own. There's no need for an online row over the whole thing."

The psychological and actual need to feel safe so that we can participate in society, is not a tiny issue.

It is actually the difference between women being able to do stuff and not being able to do stuff.

The tiny matter of not being sure that I will get a sex-segregated carriage, will stop me from ever taking the sleeper train again. The tiny issue of not being sure that a sex segregated youth hostel dorm will actually be sex segregated, will stop me ever staying in a YH again.

I am not particularly unusual. Most women do not want to risk sleeping in places where men they don't know, will be sleeping too.

Up until the last couple of years or so, it has never been a controversial point of view. It has been considered totally and completely normal and understandable. Now that it is considered ragingly bigoted and pearl clutching, many women will be too scared to voice it (because they will be told they're ridiculous, as women often are when they voice nervousness about male violence), but they will simply exclude themselves from activities which used to be open to them.

snowbird135 · 02/04/2018 16:52

Wow, I've provoked quite a response,

I'm not looking for an arguement. I do understand that some people are uncomfortable sharing space with trans people. I don't have a problem with that, and I try to deal with it as reasonably as I can.

The first couple of responses were pretty reasonable, but things are getting kinda aggressive. I don't really feel like there's much point in me sticking around. Nothing good is gonna come of this.

FencingFightingTorture35 , Kneedeepinunicorns - Thanks for your questions :) You raised some interesting points.

SweetSummerchild · 02/04/2018 16:56

This may be an inappropriate analogy, but I’m going to use it anyway.

Being disabled, like being female, is a protected characteristic. Disabled people face all sorts of disadvantages. However, steps have been taken to protect disabled people from disadvantage in certain aspects of life.

For example, many leisure attractions allow a carer to go free or allow disabled people to fastrack queues. In other venues, disabled people are given access to premium seating etc.

One well-known organisation introduced a new policy as they had decided that asking customers to ‘prove’ their disability before giving them a disabled pass was intrusive. In other words, people could self-ID as disabled. The result of this was pretty predictable. The lines for disabled guests became almost as long as for the regular lines. The people who lost out were the disabled customers. I think the policy has been abandoned.

Who, in their right minds, would want to be disabled? It’s not exactly an easy life. However, there are an awful lot of vile non-disabled people out there who con their way into disabled facilities and adaptations that they see as advantageous. Blue badge fraud is a good example. It’s sick, twisted and - just like disability benefit fraud - ultimately disadvantages those with hidden disabilities. It doesn’t stop it from happening though.

Most (not all) disabled people accept that constantly having to ‘prove’ your disability is a necessary evil to protect your facilities from the deceitful.

I don’t know what point I’m trying to make. All I know is that if anyone coudl be able to self-ID as disabled then the world would become ever more difficult for disabled people.

Terftastic · 02/04/2018 16:57

I'm not uncomfortable sharing a space with a fully transitioned transwoman.

I'm uncomfortable with self ID which would allow any man to identify as a woman (and remain male bodied) being able to take up the same right as said fully transitioned transwoman, and share space with me.

Does that make sense?

Stillscreaming · 02/04/2018 17:02

Your posts on here quite frequently seem disingenous, only because you seem to ignore a lot of what is said to you and repeat the same arguments over and over. I told you about the sex attacks in Target in the US where changing rooms are now gender-neutral on another thread recently. Your response was that had nothing to do with trans people but was everything to do with predatory men, this despite person after person on here trying to tell you that that is precisely our issue with self-id. It isn't that we think all trans people are perverts, far from it. It's that some will be and equally some predatory men will take advantage of self-id and access their victims with greater ease.

Let's do those Target figures first. They're a crock of shite. Of the twenty incidents cited, there were three examples of women being filmed or molested by men in toilets, which is the same as the number of boys/men being filmed or molested in the men's toilets. The rest of the reported incidents happened in the shop.

The research was carried out by Paul Dirks, his Twitter bio reads as follows "fighting the mainstream media trans-narrative for the sake of women, who will bear the terrible consequences. Follower of Christ. Family man. Social conservative." Hardly unbiased,

Those stats are not based on anything that Target themselves recorded or published, Dirks did a Google search, that, combined with his clear, personal bias on this issue, isn't reliable evidence of anything.

I'm all for getting rid of predatory men, that's why I'm so frustrated at how much time is wasted trying to throw trans people under a bus.

My critical facilities don't work in numbers, lots of people telling me the same thing, doesn't make something true.

Something I've noticed is, that when people are actually genuinely concerned about something, they react with relief when you find evidence to reassure them that their fears aren't being played out in real life.

Those who insist on having their 'concerns' honoured, even when the evidence points the other way, are not genuinely 'concerned' they are fighting an ideological corner, some just don't have the balls to admit to it.

Idontdowindows · 02/04/2018 17:11

I do understand that some people are uncomfortable sharing space with trans people.

No, you don't understand. We have a problem sharing with MEN.

I would be perfectly happy to share with a woman, no matter what she looks like.

Terftastic · 02/04/2018 17:14

Oh, another wall of text by a poster who is 'mostly indifferent' to this topic. Hmm

It's a bit futile to deny the dangers to women of allowing any men (just on their word that they identify as a woman) into women's spaces. We already know the dangers that predatory men pose to women - we're taught about it from an early age - which is kind of why we set up those female-only spaces in the first place.

SuitedandBooted · 02/04/2018 17:30

"Something I've noticed is, that when people are actually genuinely concerned about something, they react with relief when you find evidence to reassure them that their fears aren't being played out in real life"

What, like this you mean - "Don't look it's not real!!!

-Up to half of trans inmates may be sex offenders-

Plans to allow people to self-define their gender could put female prisoners at risk, campaigners warn.

Dragging on her king-sized cigarette in front of a no-smoking sign, her long, red-dyed hair falling over her silver fur coat, Davina Ayrton smiled at the camera just before she was sentenced to eight years in prison for raping a schoolgirl.

For anyone asking how a woman can be convicted of rape — which in law requires the use of a penis — the answer is Ayrton, previously known as David, was a man when she pinned down her 15-year-old victim in a Portsmouth garage. She still has her male genitalia.
At trial Ayrton expressed a wish to serve her time in a women’s prison. Now a proposed change in the law makes her desire a real prospect.

In March, Jessica Winfield, a transgender double rapist convicted under her previous identity of Martin Ponting, was moved to a women’s jail after having a sex change. Two months ago, Winfield was reportedly segregated after making “inappropriate advances” to female prisoners.

With the government soon to consult about allowing people to change gender on demand, prisons will be on the front line. No other single-sex place — no changing room, lavatory or shower area — forces you to live in it for up to 24 hours a day, confined with others who are there because their behaviour is extreme.

Transgender lobbyists say putting trans women into men’s jails endangers and may even kill them. They point to Tara Hudson, who lived as a woman for almost a decade before being sent to a male prison — where she was treated, she said, as a “zoo animal” — or to the five trans prisoners in men’s jails who have killed themselves over the past two years.

In 2015 Cat Smith, the Labour MP for Lancaster and Fleetwood, read out in parliament a letter from a trans constituent in a men’s jail who said she had been raped by male prisoners.

But a new report by the campaign group Fair Play for Women, to be published today, suggests that placing transwomen in female prisons may be even more risky for the other inmates. According to the research, a disproportionate number of transgender convicts are, like Ayrton and Winfield, sex offenders.

It was a problem already quietly worrying professionals in the field. In previously unpublicised evidence to the Commons women and equalities committee, the British Psychological Society warned that some biological men convicted of sex crimes had “falsely claimed” to be transgender “as a means of demonstrating reduced risk and so gaining parole” or in rare cases it has been thought that the person is “seeking better access to females and young children through presenting in an apparently female way”.

The president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, James Barrett, told the committee a “highly concerned prison governor” had received a “plethora of prison intelligence” that one dangerous offender sought transition “to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier”.

According to the Ministry of Justice there are 70 trans prisoners in England and Wales. It refuses freedom of information requests asking how many are sex offenders. It is known, however, that eight men’s prisons are reserved for sex criminals — and the new research suggests there are 46 trans inmates in these eight jails alone.

The number was obtained from 2016 or 2017 reports on each prison published by its independent monitoring board, formerly the board of visitors, or in reports by the prisons inspectorate. The figure is not definitive because the reports were published at different times over the past year or so and cover slightly different periods for each jail.
Many sex offenders are also housed outside the eight specialist jails, so the true number of transgender sex offenders could be higher than 46. And the total number of transgender prisoners is also likely to be greater than the official figure of 70, which dates from spring 2016.
Based on examining the reports from the then 118 prisons in England and Wales, Fair Play for Women estimates that the total number of male-to-female transgender prisoners in men’s prisons is about 100. A further 13 trans inmates, including Winfield, been transferred to women’s prisons, the group says.

Despite the imprecision of the figures, it appears likely, therefore, that between a third and a half of all England and Wales’s transgender prisoners — Fair Play for Women states 41% — are sex offenders. That compares with a proportion of 17% in the prison population as a whole.
The disproportionate representation of sex criminals among transgender inmates also emerges in several reports by prison monitoring boards. The monitors for the sex offenders’ prison at Stafford, covering the year to April 2017, say that towards the end of that period this single jail “held 10% of the national transgender prisoner population”.

The report for Littlehey, another sex offender-only jail, covering the period to January 2017, says there are 11 trans prisoners. At Whatton, another prison housing exclusively sex criminals, the 2016 report says there are 12 trans inmates.

Most retain their male genitalia but six are on the “pathway” to physical sex-change treatment. They can order women’s clothing and beauty accessories.

Current English prison policy, described as “sensible” by Barrett and other gender practitioners, tries to balance the needs of different groups. It says that trans inmates do not have the right to choose whether to be in men’s or women’s prisons unless their change of gender has been legally established through a “gender recognition certificate”, requiring the consent of a doctor and an expert panel, though not surgery.
After the Tara Hudson case, however, the policy also says that requests from other trans prisoners to be moved to women’s jails will be looked on sympathetically where there is strong evidence of their living as female before incarceration — and will be blocked if an offender is suspected of “insincere motivation”.

If the government’s proposals to allow gender self-definition go through, such controls may be removed and the number of biological men in female jails is expected to increase sharply. Nicola Williams, of Fair Play for Women, said: “Trans-identifying males will become eligible for transfer to women’s prisons, representing a serious risk to the safety, privacy and dignity of women in prison.

“There is a conflict here between transgender rights and the rights of other people such as women. What is shocking is that we are rushing into this [self-declaration] without evidence of its impacts.”
The effect can already be seen in Scotland, where this policy is broadly in place and most trans prisoners are allowed to transfer to women’s units without a gender recognition certificate. Scotland has 18 transgender prisoners, including 13 male-to-female, far more than England and Wales for its prison population size. Most are in female accommodation.

One of the 13, Paris Green, was convicted of murder as a man and has twice been allowed to transfer to women’s units before being moved out again after having sex with female inmates.
Another trans inmate, Tiffany Scott, convicted as Andrew Burns for stalking a 13-year-old girl, assault and other offences, punched a prison officer and threw a chair at the prison nurse. The offences, which took place when Scott was asking to be known as Mighty Almighty, led to a court hearing at which Scott screamed that the presiding sheriff was a “f transphobe bastard” for referring to her by the wrong pronoun.

One shop steward from the POA, the Scottish prison officers union, said: “We have to be careful not to come across as bigots stuck in the past, but we also have to represent our members. Some of these guys [prisoners], the minority, I’d say, are at it.”

"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL"  ??????
OP posts:
53rdWay · 02/04/2018 17:34

Those who insist on having their 'concerns' honoured, even when the evidence points the other way, are not genuinely 'concerned' they are fighting an ideological corner

You're playing into a deeply misogynistic narrative when you suggest that women who say "I am scared/worried/uncomfortable" can't mean it, that we're just pretending to be vulnerable to hide our true malicious intent.

AltogetherAndrews · 02/04/2018 17:45

Your problem Stillscreaming, is that we are not reassured by your evidence because we live in real life, and have lived experience which tells us that natal men pose a threat, and that male strangers are therefore a risk in a confined and intimate space. Irrespective of how they identify.
We are also well used to being told to shut up and not make a fuss when our rights are under threat.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 02/04/2018 17:49

My critical facilities don't work in numbers, lots of people telling me the same thing, doesn't make something true

Absolutely. I completely agree with you. It doesn't make something true. That isn't the point I was trying to make at all. I was saying TRA's aren't a tiny, insignificant minority who can be dismissed as trolls. They have power. Sometimes numbers do matter. You are welcome to yell 'Godwin's law' at me, but here is the clearest example I think of which shows that sometimes it is important to take into account how many people are yelling something. There is, unfortunately, strength in numbers.

The photo is the Nuremberg rally, by the way.

Do you still think the fact that there are masses of aggressive TRA's and their supporters on Twitter has no meaning? I wish I had your confidence.

"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL"  ??????
FencingFightingTorture35 · 02/04/2018 17:51

Something I've noticed is, that when people are actually genuinely concerned about something, they react with relief when you find evidence to reassure them that their fears aren't being played out in real life

Ah well, I've been the victim of a sexual assault you see and I'm not sure you have disproved the fact that men commit large numbers of assaults each year. So if it's ok, I'll continue, reluctantly, to be scared and wary of self-id.

Stillscreaming · 02/04/2018 17:57

You're playing into a deeply misogynistic narrative when you suggest that women who say "I am scared/worried/uncomfortable" can't mean it, that we're just pretending to be vulnerable to hide our true malicious intent.

Luckily I'm not saying that, there are plenty of women who had concerns, who on longer do. It's not misogynistic to say that some people are full of less than open about their prejudices, even if those people are women.

I've debunked the 'Target' story. I've pointed out that there is no evidence that violence or sexual crimes against women have increased under self id in Ireland, Malta and Canada. The same people will throw the same accusations, again and again, in different threads. That's not concern, that propaganda.

I've been through Suitednbooted's post before, most of it is tabloid fodder, that's really easy to disprove. I've gone to the trouble of supply links to more trustworthy news sites, Prison Service policy documents, the gender recognition act itself. I've supplied information from the Howard League for Penal Reform, citing that female prisoners are at more risk from male prisons guards than trans women etc. etc. ect. but it keeps popping up. That's not fear, it's propaganda.

Backingvocals · 02/04/2018 18:07

I read once about a black family in the US who taught their teenage kids to smile and make eye contact with the shopkeeper when they went into a new shop. This would minimise the risk of them being deemed hoodlums and subject to police violence. I had no idea this was necessary because I am not affected by police violence but it was an eye opener.

Reading about this sort of hyper vigilance I was reminded of the sort of measures women have to take to keep themselves safe.

DD who is 11 has just started travelling on public transport. I am teaching her not to get in an empty carriage and not to get in a carriage with only men in it. These are the common sense safety rules my mother taught me.

Women have taught themselves how to be safe and we pass this down from mother to daughter. Many men have no idea that we are doing this because they can afford to be oblivious.

That’s exactly Mr Scot Rail’s problem. No need to understand so he doesn’t.

Of course there is a vanishingly small risk that I or DD will be on that train with a predatory man claiming to be a woman. But my safety rule is now shot. I’ve told her not to get into a carriage with only men in it but now it’s out of her control.

Women reserve the right to be only with women when vulnerable (asleep, undressing, in a lockable confined space). If you are not sure what women need, ask them.

Juells · 02/04/2018 18:09

What is so fucking difficult to understand? You can throw all the facts and figures you like, very few women want to share intimate spaces with men.

How come we all have to take notice of the fact that transwomen will feel unsafe sharing a space with men, but nobody seems to care that women feel that way even more so?

TERFragetteCity · 02/04/2018 18:14

I do understand that some people are uncomfortable sharing space with trans people.

No. Men. Men. Men. Men. People with penises. Be-penised people. Cocks. Willies. Erect or non-erect members. Big old beefy cock owners. Small weedy nerdy cock owners.

Who could just tick a box and whammo, we have to call them women.

How many times do we have to say it until it really penetrates?

Stillscreaming · 02/04/2018 18:17

Do you still think the fact that there are masses of aggressive TRA's and their supporters on Twitter has no meaning? I wish I had your confidence.

People, can be very aggressive on Twitter, it's not nice and I wish they'd ban more of them. A very small number of voices can seem disproportionally loud but I tell myself that anyone really coming for me won't tweet to warn me first. :-)

I've got some transsexual friends. Normal people who've been living in their acquired gender for years, go to work, pay taxes, you wouldn't look at them twice on the street. They aren't potential sex offenders. I value them, I value their right to go about their lives, in the same way I go about mine.

When I first started reading MN, I was frightened, it seemed like a majority of normal women wanted to strip my friends of their legal right to exist in their legal gender, not becasue they'd done anything wrong but in case someone else might. What I saw as an outpouring of hate, really freaked me out. I was even more alarmed when I saw that view echoed by a couple of my other friends, lesbian feminists who I'd marched with for various causes. I thought that kind of prejudice was becoming mainstream.

Then the petition came out and I saw that it was actually quite a fringe view. That's really reassured me a lot. Maybe you could start a petition to ask regular trans people if they really want phrases like 'chest feeding' used or if they want all women to stop talking about their bodies or some of the other things that do happen but aren't actually mainstream trans views at all?

stitchglitched · 02/04/2018 18:19

Stillscreaming why is it okay for transwomen to not want to share intimate spaces with males, but not for women to?

Stillscreaming · 02/04/2018 18:25

why is it okay for transwomen to not want to share intimate spaces with males, but not for women to?

Becasue they are legally women, just like the rest of us.

Terftastic · 02/04/2018 18:29

Becasue they are legally women, just like the rest of us.

Except the ones who aren't. At the moment, a transwoman is legally a woman if she holds a GRC.

What we're objecting to is self ID - where any man with nice hairy bollocks can just say he identifies as a woman. Because he says so.

stitchglitched · 02/04/2018 18:29

I'm asking why you validate the feelings of male bodied people who identify as women and claim to feel unhappy or unsafe sharing with men, but dismiss women for having those same feelings, demand proof and call them prejudiced.

TERFragetteCity · 02/04/2018 18:31

Becasue they are legally women, just like the rest of us.

What if they are actually just men, who ticked a box on the website, to claim that they were women?