"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL" ??????

[SuitedandBooted]

Yes, it is in the Daily Mail, but

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Just how the hell can Serco vouch for everyone who uses this service?
Women will be perfectly safe sharing a sleeping carriage with ANYONE as there is a button they can press?

Hello Mr Soames, Real World calling!!

What about men who get raped by other men in shared cabins or women who get sexually assaulted by other women in shared cabins?

What proportion of rapes do you think this accounts for? The reason men in a women only area are a potential risk is because men are (on average) stronger and heavier than women, and men commit more sexual assaults.

Why do rapes by trans people monopolise the imagination round these parts, as assaults by gay men on young boys did in the 1960s...?

This is not about trans people- the vast majority pose no risk, just as the vast majority of men, in general, pose no risk. There are some men who do pose a risk, which is why sex segregation in sleeping arrangements between strangers is the norm.

I've slept in mixed dorms, it's fine with large numbers; but it seems incredibly stupid in two berth cabins, based solely on self declaration.

Last I heard, gay men do also worry about sexual assault. But this is a mostly women's forum so obviously concerns are going to be centred on that.

Why do rapes by trans people monopolise the imagination round these parts

Even if every single trans person in the world is an absolute angel, a policy like this means:

a) there is no way to distinguish between actually trans people and men who are willing to tick 'female' on a form to get to share with women. Seriously, how could you tell? How could you get the train staff to tell?

b) it isn't just about rape, it's about comfort. I would not feel comfortable sharing a tiny sleeping compartment with a bloke I don't know, no matter what his gender identity was. Changing into pyjamas, sleeping, getting dressed in the morning. And I'm not a traumatised survivor of sexual assault, or a woman from a religion that would really restrict what she can do in this situation. Should women in that position who have paid for what they have been assured will be single-sex sleeping accommodation just suck it up because well at least they're not getting raped?

I thought the comments would agree it's madness to self Id.

I underestimated the hatred of women harboured by Daily Mail readers.

Fucking hell.

Daily Mail readers are also idiots who think the sleeper train has special women-only carriages while men are shoved into the guard's van or something.

If all the customers are so honest, and law abiding, then why does their complaints procedure have a section on unreasonable, abusive, or aggressive customers?
www.sleeper.scot/images/MarchPDFs/CustomerComplaints.pdf

This is what a shared sleeping cabin on the Caledonian Sleeper looks like, btw. That's a wall on the left. You really, really don't get much space.

Reading the comments below the article really demonstrate the casual misogyny that is still alive and kicking, however "equal" we like to think we are.

So many comments with a "Ha, Ha serves the feminist harpies right - they wanted equality!" slant. Because women getting access to what were men-only occupations and clubs is EXACTLY the same as men being allowed to call themselves women, and get access to any and all women's spaces and rights.

NOT!

Comments on the article are being heavily moderated BTW. Not many posts which are critical of the pro self-ID angle are allowed through.

Welcome to Rights for women, 2018 style.

@britbat23 "What about men who get raped by other men in shared cabins or women who get sexually assaulted by other women in shared cabins?" Of course any rape or attack is terrible for anyone concerned. But the vast majority of attackers and rapists are male and victims of rape are mostly women. So if there are things that can be done to help those women, like keeping males out of their carriages, why would anyone not do it, unless they did not care?

"Why do rapes by trans people monopolise the imagination round these parts, as assaults by gay men on young boys did in the 1960s...?" They do not. Not all men who identify as women are actually trans, so we are not specifically talking about trans or transexual women or trans people in general.

We are talking about the proposal to allow anyone to identify as a woman. This is not law yet, and I hope never will be. So this train company are proposing something that could endanger women.

The issue is not genuine transsexual people but rather self id.

Just because people got caught up in unfounded concerns in the past doesn't mean our concerns now are unfounded. Otherwise the 1960s argument could be used to dismiss any concerns of anyone now.

Men really do not care about our safety, sadly lots of women are happy to throw others under the bus.

I'd not travel on this train in a carriage with an unknown male or female, if you paid me.

I hope this gets picked up by other papers. And I hope this bankrupts them. Selfish and deluded and of course not all train passengers are honest or why bother checking tickets!! But actually that is more important to the train company than women's safety.

Ok. Imagine that a law is being proposed that means no one is allowed to lock their car any more. Everyone will have to leave their car unlocked at all times in all places, and view this as a positive, lovely thing. Happy about that idea?

Then imagine that you're being told: 'people are basically honest and it's silly to be paranoid about your car/its contents being stolen' and 'I'm insulted you'd imply I might/they might/my aunt Ethel's hamster's aunt might steal from your car! We'd never do that!' Convinced yet?

And:

'Well if people are determined to steal from your car it doesn't matter if it's locked or not'

And:

'well stealing is illegal so if they steal your car you can report it'.

How convinced are you now?

I put that scenario past several men in my family and they turned purple on the spot because when it's a potential crime that might affect them, they mind all right. Of course people will take advantage, of course it will increase people's experience of crime, of course it won't work on the jolly good chap principle. It's an insane idea. So is self ID.

Kneedeepinunicors

Exactly.

I don't care if someone is telling the truth about their gender identity being female. I don't want to share any intimate 'women only' space with any male bodied person. And 'not being raped' is a pretty low standard to have. What about privacy, dignity, feeling secure? So sick of this shit.

It's Easter, there's been a lot of chocolate. I've taken the liberty of cutting to the chase.

Q: What evidence do you have that men are using self ID to access women's space to attack them?

A: men are responsible for 97% of violence.

Q: Really? Okay. What evidence do you have that men are using self ID to access women's space to attack them?

A: Someone was really mean on Twitter, it's like literal violence.

Q: I thought you were banned from Twitter? Either way what evidence do you have that men are using self ID to access women's space to attack them?

A: We're being like, literally, censored on Twitter. We speak for women!

Q. Well, not if you've just set up another account. What evidence do you have, that men are using self ID to access women's space to attack them?

A. You just hate women. The trans are coming to get us!

Q: I thought this had nothing to do with trans people, I thought it was about the risk of men pretending to be trans? I though this was about the process of obtaining a gender recognition certificate? Medical proof, gatekeepers, that sort of thing?

A: What's gender, you can't answer me that one can you? I've won now! BIOLOGY!!!

Q: I'm not sure that they check biology on the trains. Would you like a system by which biology is checked on trains? I think I'd find that a bit intrusive, myself?

A. You didn't tell me what gender is!!!

What evidence? Are you serious? A little Googling will find you plenty. Try 'this never happens'. Try looking through the threads here.

Thanks, Stillscreaming, enjoy kicking the shit out of that straw man.

Meanwhile, the actual discussion: the train company is selling tickets as 'single-sex shared accommodation', but not actually providing that. And being sneery and dismissive when women complain.

There could be the most genuine transwoman in the world- feels that they are a woman, no intention of hurting a fly, I still don't want to share intimate space with them. If something is marketed as single sex then that is what I would expect. The safety aspect is an important one but not the only one for me. I'm so sick of hearing 'they aren't going to rape you' as if women are supposed to just accept anything, no matter how uncomfortable it makes them feel, as long as they aren't actually attacked.

I wish we didn't have to constantly justify ourselves, or have to drag self-interest into the conversation in order to get people to recognise the inherent problems with Self ID.

I have a very right-on dude friend, who was very pro-trans. He has a sporty daughter, who is thinking of going to college in the USA. I sent him some links to articles, showing how girls are already losing places on teams/sports-scholarships to boys.
He is now TERFing for Britain , which is all well and good - but it took immediate self-interest to get him there.

That's the position most of the commentators on the article are coming from. They don't (think) they know anyone who will take advantage, (and/or they aren't women), so it's not a problem.

If they are phasing out cabin-sharing with members (sorry, snigger) of the same sex in the Autumn, when they take delivery of new carriages, why the change?

Stillscreaming there have been countless links put on here by posters of evidence of men using self ID to abuse women and you know it.** Also what the fuck does "It's Easter, there's been a lot of chocolate" suppose to mean?

Sophia Botha, a transsexual man who identifies as a woman, shockingly claimed it was justified to ‘thump’ Terfs – a derogatory term for feminists who do not recognise transsexual women as genuinely female.
Ms Botha said hitting Terfs – it stands for Trans-exclusionary radical feminist – was a form of ‘self-defence’

Isn't this enough reason? Violence and threats aren't the answer. Women, biological women (why should that need explaining?) just want a debate about their safety.

There could be the most genuine transwoman in the world- feels that they are a woman, no intention of hurting a fly, I still don't want to share intimate space with them. If something is marketed as single sex then that is what I would expect. The safety aspect is an important one but not the only one for me. I'm so sick of hearing 'they aren't going to rape you' as if women are supposed to just accept anything, no matter how uncomfortable it makes them feel, as long as they aren't actually attacked.

Firstly, I want to thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate that you've actually articulated what your problem is, it's not self id, it's that you don't want to share with a trans woman. You're not setting up a straw man that trans women are inherently dangerous, which is also refreshingly honest. This is about you, feeling uncomfortable.

I get that, I don't want anyone to be uncomfortable. I can think of nothing worse than sharing that space with anyone.

What I'm having trouble with, is why one set of feelz*, in this case, your discomfort, more important than another set of feelz, the trans woman's of her gender? Now, I know that it has nothing to do with your being part of a larger group and the trans women being part minority group becasue no one agrees with the premiss, that the comfort of majority groups outweighs the right of inclusion of minorities. So why, in this case, are your feelz so important?

*I apologise for the annoying spelling, one of the ways in which trans women's sense of themselves is dismissed by some exclusions, is by reducing them to 'the feelz'. They aren't allowed 'feelings', like the rest of humanity.

one posters fact 100% of rapes are done by men..
Well sherlock as only men can be charged with the crime of Rape.