"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL" ??????

[SuitedandBooted]

Yes, it is in the Daily Mail, but

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Just how the hell can Serco vouch for everyone who uses this service?
Women will be perfectly safe sharing a sleeping carriage with ANYONE as there is a button they can press?

Hello Mr Soames, Real World calling!!

I am absolutely flummoxed by what that mediamatters link is supposed to be evidence of

I don't really care though. As has been said time and again, this is not only about physical safety it's about privacy and dignity as well. Women on the whole are not comfortable sharing sleeping accommodation with unknown male people, however they identify, especially where there are just two of you in a carriage.

I've cheerfully stayed in mixed hostel dorms while travelling but I wouldn't risk this.

I don't believe many men would be comfortable sharing with unknown female people either, despite there being no physical risk. #Manfriday has shown that men do care about their own privacy and dignity.

Sadly I think a manfriday action in this situation would be too dangerous, which says all we need to know.

Travis whatshisname being told he wasn't allowed to strip off with a bunch of teenage girls was framed as an abuse of his human rights. I guess when you are used to enjoying male privilege even the most reasonable rejection is seen as an attack on your civil liberties. How dare anyone say that men aren't allowed to go wherever they want, and do whatever they want, all of the time?

Why don't you moderate the worst of your own side?

I did that just the other day. Argued that I felt a specific thread had some unnecessarily unkind comments- so did some others. Our side isn't a cult, where nobody is allowed to deviate from the dogma.

Except 98% of sexually violent crime is committed by men. The cohort of which every transwoman is a member. With the added layer of fetishising womanhood belonging to the exact same subcohort.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that, most women don't have any problems with sharing space with trans women. Nearly all organisations who represent women or women's intrests don't have any problem with recognising trans women as women.

You're part of a tiny cohort who think differently and while I respect your right to think what you like, you can't impose those views on the majority.

It does look a little bit silly when we have a thread in the feminist section arguing with the Royal College of Psychiatrists or the World Health Organisation but it's their right to do so.

No one but cultists and people afraid for their jobs thinks that trans women are women.

There are a great deal of transwomen (even fully transitioned) who acknowledge they are men and state that so called 'supporters' telling people that they aren't is damaging to them. Why do you get to speak for them and deny their reality?

Trans women aren't men.

Adult human males are men.

Human beings do not change sex. Anyone who believes we do needs their head looked at.

Trans women aren't men.

That's your misguided opinion. Most people know full well that they are but want to be "kind". IMO it's not particularly kind to tell people they can be something they never can be.

It does look a little bit silly when we have a thread in the feminist section arguing with the Royal College of Psychiatrists or the World Health Organisation but it's their right to do so.

No organisation is infallible. Psychiatry is a dying art. Plenty of other doctors and scientists think so. I've heard it from their lips. Psychiatry has come out with all sorts of gumpf over the years, including the fact that multiple sclerosis is psychosomatic and comes about because of patients' desire for attention

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that, most women don't have any problems with sharing space with trans women

Most women understand that? Really? Really? Do you have a very narrow social group of people you associate with? Because over 75% of people I know through work couldn’t even tell you what a transwoman is and when it is explained to them would be baffled at your insistence that they are women.

I’m going to ask for a refund on any qualifications I have that taught me human anatomy.

How are transwoman women? Let’s come back to that?
I am very happy to call them being their chosen name, to use their pronouns, to cause them no harm and advocate for them to be treated fairly and live where they want to, wearing what they want to but they aren’t women. How do I deal with that at work? Because in my profession it simply doesn’t wash.

Not necessarily your insistence I should add but the TRAs and chunks of social media insistence that they are women.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that, most women don't have any problems with sharing space with trans women.

If you can't accept basic biological fact, there is really no point engaging with you. It isn't scientific. If you want people to be whatever they identify as, you have to accept some white people can become black, that grown men are really six year old children and that some people are disabled despite actually being able-bodied. A kind society humours some trans people who experience a huge amount of distress at being their birth sex, but it doesn't literally believe you can change sex. That is nonsensical and akin to religious belief.

And I sincerely believe most women would have a problem sharing private spaces with transwomen if they knew most keep their penises. This despite me knowing that there are a great many lovely, kind transwomen.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

Lol.

Men are of the biological sex who can produce sperm, women are of the biological sex who can produce eggs. I'd be very interested to know how you think that people who have the biological sex who can produce sperm can also be at the biological sex who can produce eggs.

Unless you suddenly have a different definition of the word woman.

In which case what is it?

There are 8 billion people in the world.

If even 0.05% agree that a person with a dick, or who was born with a dick, can be a whatever-their-word-is-for-woman I will eat every single item of clothing I am wearing (and I just got back after a weekend away so my house is freezing )

We know what women are. We know what men are. Stop gaslighting us.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

No, they're being told it. Small, but crucial difference.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

Almost all women, men, children and domestic pets know that transwomen are male.

Most women understand it's not polite to point this out. Most women will be polite until their own rights, or the rights of their children, are threatened. Some women will continue to be polite past this point. Don't read anything into that, after all some women are polite to men who abuse them. Sometimes that's why they are still alive.

Your post has more than a whiff of desperation about it.

We're not a tiny cohort and you can have no idea how the majority feel because the majority are not yet aware that the implications of self-ID (both in the GRA sense and the random organisations ignoring the EA sense) go far beyond making things easier for their nice trans friend who only wants to live quietly.

We will continue to make people aware of these things so they can make their own minds up

Trans women are male. Most people understand that
I know 5 trans women. 4 of them look at act male. One frequently refers to himself as the little woman despite being 6'2" and with hands like shovels
3 of them wear skirts that barely cover their arses and frilly socks despite being over 50
All of this is meaningless just like those who post how lovely their trans friends are
None of this should matter when legislating
We either have single sex spaces or we don't

All of this is meaningless just like those who post how lovely their trans friends are
None of this should matter when legislating
We either have single sex spaces or we don't

This. Why would I care that you personally have trans friends you think are nice? Great for you. But utterly meaningless to me, and doesn't reassure me one bit when it comes to my specific concerns.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

Oh lord you are so deluded.

Most women you meet, are too polite to do anything other than pander to you. It's what we've been socialised to do to men since birth.

But when we are alone, without a male there, we talk very differently to each other.

I reckon that's why so many males want in. they can't bear that women have unsupervised conversations.

How do you know which my side is Stillscreaming? I've not posted an opinion for either side. However, to answer your question if I had been on a thread where you were being subject to the kind of abuse you have detailed such as comparing you to a sex offender I would have called it out on the thread at the time and reported it to MNHQ.

I still maintain the point that if your trans friends find the current TRA rhetoric unpalatable and as the TRA's are the ones making all the running on that side of the debate and lobbying intensively for changes to law why are the 'moderates' not making their disagreement heard?

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

Speaking as someone who has just shared the full, Government-sanctioned changes to the Gender Recognition Act, and what it actually means with my Swimming Club ( over 70 female-only members), I can assure you that they really, REALLY don't...

Nah - the majority of people do not think 'trans women' are women, they know they are men.

I know this route really well. No one wants to share a cabin; you book and hope hardly anyone else has booked and you get your own cabin by default. (Unlike restaurants where they try to bunch people together, the staff try to give berth travellers as much space as possible to maintain as much privacy as possible.)

However, sometimes all cabins are booked up and you do have to share (unless you've paid extra for the solo supplement or gone first class - both of which are very expensive jumps in ticket price).

The cabins are tiny. If you woke up in the middle of the night and someone was on top of you, you would struggle to fight them off due to the lack of space. If there are panic buttons, I've never spotted any - not sure anyone would think to look for one in that situation.

With the seated carriage, a guard checks on you regularly. It's not great for your back and you frequently wake up due to passengers getting on and off and not thinking to be quiet, but I don't feel vulnerable. I know there is CCTV and someone making a regular sweep. The Cally Sleeper staff are fab and they look out for everyone. Everyone in the public areas, that is.

Now that I know I could be sharing a berth with a man - note, not a genuine transwoman, but a man self-declaring as a woman to get into their same tiny semi-private room as me - I'll be sticking to the seated carriage, thank you.

Trans women aren't men. Most women understand that

Dream on