"Our customers won't do this because they aren't DECEITFUL" ??????

[SuitedandBooted]

Yes, it is in the Daily Mail, but

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5565999/Row-female-compartments-transgender-people-pits-Churchills-grandson-against-Mumsnet.html

Just how the hell can Serco vouch for everyone who uses this service?
Women will be perfectly safe sharing a sleeping carriage with ANYONE as there is a button they can press?

Hello Mr Soames, Real World calling!!

Well sherlock as only men can be charged with the crime of Rape.

Yes, and some people seem incapable of remembering that.

Stillscreaming because sex segregated space should be just that. I wouldn't book a space that segregated according to gender identity. There are very good reasons for separating by sex- privacy, dignity, comfort, feeling safe and secure. It is why the equality act allows certain exemptions even with transwomen who hold a GRC. It is why the NHS allows you to specify carers of the same sex not 'gender'. Transwomen are not the female sex. Their wish for their identity to be validated should not be prioritised over the very good reasons why we have women only spaces. The train company are advertising falsely.

And fwiw I do think there is a big risk to the safety of women by opening up spaces that are women only to male bodied people who say they identify as women. The point I was making are that there are reasons other than immediate physical safety to have same sex spaces and I'm sick of seeing 'not being raped' as the standard women are expected to tolerate.

it's not self id, it's that you don't want to share with a trans woman. You're not setting up a straw man that trans women are inherently dangerous, which is also refreshingly honest. This is about you, feeling uncomfortable

If you want to read it like that. Looks like your own straw man though.

I think she doesn't want to share with a man. And she's defining man by 'has XY chromosomes, other 50% of our sexually dimorphic species' like, y'know, getting on for 8 billion of us do.

We know what men are. We don't want to share sleeping spaces with them unless we're intimate with them. That's why we have sex segregation. Please stop pretending that that's transphobic. It's not.

I think she doesn't want to share with a man

Spot on, thank you.

And what was that fucking conversation with yourself you typed out earlier?

Yeah, 'cos that's the level of debate on Mumsnet. Do you HONESTLY think anyone would read that and go 'oh right, that the argument is it? In that case I wholeheartedly support TRAs.'? Really? With the quality of argument from posters here?

Have a fucking

why one set of feelz, in this case, your discomfort, more important than another set of feelz*

Yes. Absolutely this.

Why should a male born person's discomfort be less important than a female born person's discomfort? And vice versa.

Well the thing is, obviously, one does not trump the other. Both are equally important. So the obvious answer is the provision of a third space: mens, womens and gender neutral.

However the hypothesis being put forward at the moment is that transwomen needs and feelings should trump womens needs feelings, because 'cisprivilege'. And, as numerous tweets put forth, women just need to be 're educated' or to get over it. Does that seem fair or balanced? Or a win-win solution likely to (in Debbie Hayton's words) build trust between transwomen and women?

However this leaves aside that the balance of feelings is in the context of consent, situations of nudity, intimacy and dignity: basically that biological women's 'discomfort' about males need to be abandoned the second that male says the words 'I'm a woman'. And in issues of consent, no always trumps yes.

And actually it makes me really angry that this has been pitted as one person's feelings against other person's feelings. Sex segregation is about material reality not feelings and women are being expected to pretend reality doesn't exist to be polite. This company, if they are going to continue with this policy, need to drop the pretence that these are women only spaces so that nobody makes the mistake of actually thinking that they are, you know, women only. It could be very distressing for a woman who has done this to be put in the position of sharing with a man.

Yep, sharing that link to the petition again.
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

And why do trans identifying men want to be in women's spaces anyway?

It's because men are violent, right?

But all of a sudden - when they want into women's spaces to get away from that possible violence - men are NOT violent.

Which is it? Are men so violent that poor trans people have to be segregated from them or are men not violent so women have nothing to fear from them?

'Cos it can't be both.

In the hypothetical situation that I was on this particular sleeper train, I couldn't really give a flying fuck what sex my hypothetical carriage partner was. What would concern me was how likely they might be to decide to take advantage of the situation and then hurt me. So another woman - unlikely; a "real" transwomen ie one who has made the effort/done the psych/surgery etc - also unlikely; a male self ID for access beyond his usual remit - more than likely.

Some of the comments under the article are making me so mad. So many men really don't get it. They whine that they have been putting up with their spaces for years and that this is the logical conclusion of feminism and that feminists should "suck it up".

Or are they actually ok with the idea of women being attacked or assaulted in the middle of the night by their cabin mate?

Women's fears of male violence- hysterical, strawman, unfounded.

Males fear of male violence- must be taken seriously and catered to at any cost.

Lets not pretend this is anything other than plain old misogyny.

And actually it makes me really angry that this has been pitted as one person's feelings against other person's feelings. Sex segregation is about material reality not feelings and women are being expected to pretend reality doesn't exist to be polite. This company, if they are going to continue with this policy, need to drop the pretence that these are women only spaces so that nobody makes the mistake of actually thinking that they are, you know, women only. It could be very distressing for a woman who has done this to be put in the position of sharing with a man.

Indeed. Very well said.

If its 'gender segregated' (wtf is that anyway?!) then say so. Do not pretend its sex segregated when it is not.

@stitchglitched Women's fears of male violence- hysterical, strawman, unfounded.

yes, aren't we just all making such a silly woman-headed fuss...

thenewbacklash.blogspot.co.uk/p/9-documented-harms-to-women-and-girls.html

transcrimeuk.com/about-this-site-2/

Or are they actually ok with the idea of women being attacked or assaulted in the middle of the night by their cabin mate?

Yes.

Yes they are.

Not only are they OK with it, they're delighted at the prospect of women being punished for having the temerity to believe we can go about our normal lives without being attacked by men.

I think women are still very naive or in denial about the sheer depth and breadth of misogny in our society. Some men really, really hate us. Mostly they try and hide it from us. But sometimes, they let it slip.

Something I genuinely don’t understand is why many high profile TIMs don’t see the risks to themselves from this kind of self ID. How would Lily, Paris, Munroe, Juno, Shon react if they were sharing a sleeper carriage with the likes of Davina Ayrton or William (Gillian) Jaggs? If Davina and Gillian aren’t transphobic and agree trans women are women and can happily self identify into sharing a compartment based on gender, would LM happily share with them? I don’t understand why they don’t see the risks self ID presents to all women, if you follow the “trans women are women” mantra.

Or are they actually ok with the idea of women being attacked or assaulted in the middle of the night by their cabin mate?

Not at all, I'm very aware of the problem of violence against women. I know that two women are murdered ever week in the UK and that countless others are beaten or raped. I know that the vast majority of this violence is carried out by women's intimate partners.

I know that stranger violence is rarer but still significant, I know that that it is carried out my men, almost with impunity, that they most certainly don't have to 'dress up' to rape or attack women. I know that 'dressing up as a women' would draw attention to a violent man who intends to rape. I know that the evidence that this is a problems just isn't there.

www.mediamatters.org/research/2016/05/05/comprehensive-guide-debunked-bathroom-predator-myth/210200

I know that in Canada and Ireland, there has been no increase in violence against women, since the introduction of self id laws.

Talking of Ireland, I know that while Irish feminists haven't got themselves caught down the rabbit hole of 'anti trans', we've been able to focus our efforts elsewhere. We have fought for, and achieved, a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment, the part of our constitution that give an equal right to life to women and a foetus.

The reaction to the Belfast rape trial has been fantastic, women are mobilising on the streets, Twitter was ablaze with the #I believeher and #suemepaddy trends and also 60,000 people have signed a petition asking for the accused to be sacked.

I'll remind you all becasue it does need saying, Northern Ireland is part of the U.K. and that abortion is illegal in NI and that women who have abortions are still prosecuted and found guilty in NI.

If your answer to the links shared above, some of which come straight from evidence by the prison service, is that those incidents never happened, then there's no point talking about it any further. You're delusional.

It's not a strawman that MEN are inherently dangerous.

We do not want to share with MEN.

Trans"women" are MEN, ergo we do not want to share with them.

Gender is a load of bullshit. We want a SEX-segregated safe space.

What on earth would be the point of any space being segregated by 'gender'?

Actually there are plenty of accounts online from women in Canada who say that things are far from okay with self ID there. It is just very difficult to get transparent reporting due to the very strict laws on 'misgendering' etc.

Firstly, I want to thank you for your honesty, I really appreciate that you've actually articulated what your problem is, it's not self id, it's that you don't want to share with a trans woman.

Because they are men. All of them. Every single one. Women don't want to share with men. It's a perfectly reasonable position to take.

And what was that fucking conversation with yourself you typed out earlier?

A scary level of self obsession, I'd say.