To ask all Irish women to please show solidarity today?

[RottenTomatoes959]

Please join the rallies in support of the victim in belfast today,theres rallies in Dublin belfast and cork. Enough is enough and we can not take this one lying down. Show support to the brave young woman and lets not have this trial be in vain.
Something has to change.

"Not allow defence lawyers to use the victims dress, level of intoxication, location, prior sexual history, mh history, Dv history to be used.

Not just talking about this case now. How can you sensibly argue that these things are never relevant and should never be allowed to be used? How can you prove or disprove consent in any situation? Most of these are to an extent relevant." Are you SERIOUS??? I REALLY hope you're not a lawyer and never serve in a jury in a rape case wtf!

Re how long they deliberated - I was initially quoting another poster who felt similarly, also "thinking" about the case is NOT the same as discussing with other jurors - otherwise there'd BE no deliberations and they'd just take a vote and return the verdict based on that! Jesus!

Clearly you don't know much yourself - admissibility is also a test of evidence in U.K. Law. One of the reasons for admissibility is if it's relevant.

Your first para at 2136 is pure rape apologism and frankly disgusting!

I'm also having trouble believing you're a woman too (I'm also thinking you may be a particular type of man).

Wow your latest post even worse! Let me guess - you don't believe rape in marriage, coerced rape, blackmail rape exist either

I am having trouble with concept of withdrawing consent after kissing someone and going home with them.

So if I go to a bar and meet a man and we kiss and then I go home with him that means that I definitely want sex? That at no point after I make that decision I am able to change my mind?

Really?

So we get back to his and he's coming on a little strong, and I want to slow down, but he doesn't and I came here, so I can't change my mind.

Or we are in the middle of something and the next minute his roommate appears and joins in. But I came here...I left the bar with him, I already kissed him, I already started foreplay, nope too far gone now, I can't change my mind.

Why do you see sex like that? Do you see it as something that a man has a right to? Are you afraid of being called a cock tease?

What is it that gives you trouble about acknowledging that anyone can change their mind at anytime during foreplay or sex, regardless of the other person's view of the situation?

No one deserves to be burgled or raped, but if you leave your window open, you do make it easier for the criminals to be taken advantage of.

What a load of victim blaming shite. No one is to blame for crime except the perpetrator.

Graphista - You are wrong. Nothing that I said suggests that I don’t believe in these things. I do believe they happen. Not relevant to this debate.

I am not any particular type of man. I am a woman. I have never kissed anyone who I didn’t want to have sex with.

Judging from your critical reasoning skills, you have not made it past a BA “degree” in Gender studies from Scunthorpe Metropolitan

I am sure many women have made their excuses and left. I have in the past. But that is not what you were saying. You were saying that you only kiss a man if you want to have sex with him. Which is a perfectly acceptable stance for you to live by if that is what you choose. But not all women do and they are not lesser for it. Kissing a man is not a green light for intercourse.

I am glad that you have never been in a bad situation. That is good. I wish more women could say the same.

And regarding the putting yourself in the situation theory. It is a common viewpoint. But it is victim blaming and puts the onus on the woman to not allow herself to get raped, rather than on the rapist to not rape.

If rapists wore nice big shiny badges I would guess that women would be able to steer clear of them. But they don't. So "not putting ourselves in that situation" effectively means never going out alone, never being alone with a man, whether he be our boss, our partner, an acquaintance, a man in a bar, or a stranger.

Is that really the answer to the problem of rape? Women should just stay away from all men, because we can't tell which one's are the rapey kind?

@rockshandy

Kissing someone you are attracted to is a sexual act. Even if you change your mind later, when you kiss someone, it's a non-verbal sign you are attracted to them. It is not a green light. To use your metaphor, it is amber light, which some traffic lights have and some don't.

I am not afraid of being a cocktease, I just don't understand why a cocktease is a "thing" at all.

One can start having intercourse with someone and change their mind, but why would one do that? I am not judging, I am just stating that I can not relate to the experience of it.

Yes, it is a non verbal sign you are attracted to them, but why does that equal intercourse?

A cock tease is a thing men call women who exercise their right to not have full intercourse, or give oral, or what ever else a man thinks he is entitled to at any given time. We can agree that it shouldn't be a thing.

@rockshandy

You are confusing many things together. Women should be able to feel safe with men, but putting all situations like you did above is counterproductive and is doing a disservice to women.

Sexual assault and unwanted sexual attention can come from variety of sources and women are never "asking" for it. I didn't say that they do, but when you kiss someone, you are signalling that you might be up for more. By the time consent gets withheld, judgment and memories could be clouded for all parties involved.

Men are increasingly called out on their inappropriate behaviour and that is a good development. However, in this case a jury reached a verdict. I am open to changing my opinion on this case, if it gets overturned on appeal. But no one is talking about appealing, are they?

By the time consent gets withheld, judgment and memories could be clouded for all parties involved.

Ummmmm..... are we doing the "men who get excited can't help themselves" defence here or summat?

Cause, you know, they can. They just don't want to.

I really am not the one that is confused here.

Men can control themselves.

Pointing out that women are entitled to change their mind at any point is not doing a disservice to them.

Suggesting that once a woman kisses a man she is somehow obliged to go the whole way is a disservice to women and an insult to men who are perfectly capable of controlling themselves and do not consider themselves entitled to full intercourse with every woman they kiss.

@rockshandy

It doesn't equal intercourse. However, I am willing to bet, that in most, if not all, cases of this nature, either drugs or alcohol or both are involved, which make issues like consent incredibly tricky. Unless there is video evidence, in situations like this, one can not know what happened for a fact.

Idontdowindows

No, I am not saying that at all. Men can and should be able to help themselves. I am saying, that it is entirely possible for someone to get so drunk, they do not pick up on what is going on around them....

I am not saying that this happened in this case. I don't know what happened. Memory is selective even without intoxication. Women should not be automatically considered to have given explicit consent. Men should not be automatically considered to be rapists.

I am saying, that it is entirely possible for someone to get so drunk, they do not pick up on what is going on around them....

Well yes, we all know that, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

@Wedonttalk I would make an excuse and leave. Maybe I was lucky, but I have never been around men I felt threatened by or didn’t think I could say no to.

Exactly that, you were lucky. Please have the awareness to recognise that. In this world, the only way we as women can be sure to make ourselves safe is to seriously voluntarily curb our freedom, e.g. to go where we want, when we want, with whomever we want, to dress how we like, to kiss who we fancy because it can give men ideas, next thing they feel they are entitled to all of it 😡

I don’t know when, or if ever, the society will take on board the true concept of consent which treats women as equals to men.

@rockshandy

We are not talking about two people, who met during coffee break during the day, are we?

I'm saying confusing blurry situations like kissing someone and then deciding not to continue with intercourse, is not the same as a woman coming home from work late at night. It's not the same as someone meeting someone on-line and being subsequently blackmailed for whatever reason. It's not the same as a woman abused by her husband.

Every case is individual and, dare I say, evidentially, some cases are more clear cut than others. Read this correctly, they are equally important, but not as easy to decide on/provide evidence for/prove beyond reasonable doubt.

It is a disservice to be considering these cases together as one and the same.

@Toomanynamestoremember

This is why I said I can not understand. Luck or not, I do not think I have ever curbed my freedom to do anything. I do not feel like a second class citizen. I do not think I am equal to men. I am different to them, and better than most of them. Equality is misguided.

As far as I am concerned, people can think what they want. In most cases, I am not capable of changing that.

@Wedonttalk One can start having intercourse with someone and change their mind, but why would one do that? I am not judging, I am just stating that I can not relate to the experience of it.

Oh use your imagination! Maybe you like it vanilla and he got metal hand cuffs out and proceeded to use a whip on you. But sure, you can’t say no now!

Addressing your earlier point that some women like it rough. They may well do. But BDSM folk do have safe words for this very reason, people consent on ongoing basis and can withdraw their consent when they aren’t comfortable with what’s happening/ don’t want it to go further.

Luck or not, I do not think I have ever curbed my freedom to do anything.

Yes, you were lucky. And yes you have. Unfortunately you don't recognise it as you have internalised it all as normal for you.

But seeing as you were so lucky, how about a bit of empathy for those who don't have that luck eh?

Sexual assault and unwanted sexual attention can come from variety of sources and women are never "asking" for it. I didn't say that they do, but when you kiss someone, you are signalling that you might be up for more. By the time consent gets withheld, judgment and memories could be clouded for all parties involved.

Silly little wimin, us, don’t know what day it is half of the time. ‘s too difficult for us, all this consent and bodily autonomy malarkey.

What exact planet are you on ? A jury decided the verdict. Have some respect for the justice system and their decision. And let these men move on. That march is a glorified lynch mob/ trial by social media and its not in my name thank you very much.
Those marchera should go home and get a job / life

Circumstances surrounding individual rape cases are certainly different. Some may well be more "clear cut" to an outside perspective than others.

But lets be clear, rapists do not rape because they are too horny to be able to stop themselves. They rape because of an underlying belief that they are entitled to do to a woman whatever they want. Rape is not a crime of passion. It is about control, aggression and men's submission of women.

When it comes to being under the influence...If a man is so drunk that he cannot tell if a woman is consenting or not then he needs to stop. If the woman is so drunk that the man can't trust her consent, he needs to stop. Attitudes need to change. Men need to properly understand what consent is, and stop relying on "well she kissed me and she came here so she must want it."

@Idontdowindows

Nothing I said indicates my level of empathy. You can empathise with women in very unfortunate situations and believe in criminal justice system at the same time.

I do not agree with calling all women second class citizens by default. I do not agree assuming that all men are rapists, who disrespect women.

It's not productive or empathetic to march around saying "Ibelieveher". She isn't going to feel better, is she?

It's productive to raise your sons to be respectful of women. It's productive to volunteer your time or money to victims of abuse.

You have said you struggle to understand issues around consent - those are all types of rape where consent is regularly considered problematic by people who think like you do re having kissed, flirted, gone back to a man's home. So no I'm NOT wrong at all.

"I have never kissed anyone I didn't want to have sex with" have you ever kissed someone and not wanted sex with them AT THAT TIME? IF you are a woman I strongly doubt it or else you've had unusual relationships AND been very lucky.

You seem to be positing the idea that only a certain type of woman (or girl) gets raped. That's wrong, disgusting and dangerous.

And there was no need for the very inaccurate assumption re my qualifications and experience.

I have 2 degrees from 2 good universities, I'm also a survivor of csa and several assaults as an adult.

"I would make an excuse and leave." Ffs REALLY?

A NOBODY knows how they'd react when at risk of attack until it happens, we even react differently at different times, depending on the nature, timing, perpetrator of the attack.

B the 3 ways most people react is

Fight - which may well piss your attacker off so they are more violent. Rape victims can often end up with injured knees as a result of trying to keep the attacker from gaining access.

Flight - you can try but good luck given most men are taller, faster, stronger than women so he could well overpower you.

Freeze - literally. Tonic immobility a type of trauma induced paralysis.

Wedont - a guess based on some of your language use - are you American?

Omg - do you actually believe in the "blue balls" nonsense then?

Consent can be withdrawn AT ANY TIME I have had a number of consensual sexual partners, I have a gynae condition that can sometimes mean sex becomes painful - EVERY partner I've had has had no problem with stopping the second I said there was a problem. Men CAN stop and 😱 it doesn't kill them!

"either drugs or alcohol or both are involved" oh for crying out loud

www.consentiseverything.com

Also

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/powerful-art-exhibit-powerfully-answers-the-question-what-were-you-wearing_us_59baddd2e4b02da0e1405d2a

Cos I can just imagine that'll be the next load of victim blaming bullshit I read.

One time I was attacked I was wearing jeans, jumper, hat, scarf, gloves and winter coat and wellies! Oh and it was broad daylight too!