Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask all Irish women to please show solidarity today?

349 replies

RottenTomatoes959 · 29/03/2018 08:20

Please join the rallies in support of the victim in belfast today,theres rallies in Dublin belfast and cork. Enough is enough and we can not take this one lying down. Show support to the brave young woman and lets not have this trial be in vain.
Something has to change.

OP posts:
Stillscreaming · 29/03/2018 14:24

It was actually nice to have a few hours that weren't about Repealing the 8th, even for such an awful reason.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 14:27

Signed. Though I do not think a review should actually be needed. Condemned out of their own mouths.
The people of Ireland deserve better than this filth.

4Funnels · 29/03/2018 14:52

@BlueSapp

Anaphora does not make you correct and nothing you said prove she was raped.

I also disagree with the petition. Rape trial juries should not be 'educated' or trained before a trial. They should listen to evidence and take instruction when necessary but attempting to create bias is not something I would ever be in favour of.

Jewelofthenile · 29/03/2018 14:52

Im embarrassed to be a woman when I read shit like this.

A jury decided, based upon evidence presented, that the defendants weren't guilty. Or are you all suggesting that an accusation is proof enough!

How many rape convictions would you all be happy with?

Justice is lost of your lynch mob mentality catches on.

You do more damage to women by indulging in this frenzied, irrational and frankly fucking loopy behaviour.

Mightymucks · 29/03/2018 14:58

Iceland have actually just introduced an interesting law which might help with cases like this. The male has to demonstrate clear consent was given rather than the victim having to say no. So in cases like this where the victims claim to have frozen or complied because they were frightened it would still be rape.

grapevine.is/news/2018/03/23/iceland-unanimously-passes-landmark-law-on-sexual-consent/

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:00

Ah yes, of course. Women who are angry must by definition be frenzied, loopy etc.
Nothing immoderate or intemperate about your language of course jewel. You are a model of wisdom, discretion and balance.

Poodles1980 · 29/03/2018 15:01

Good to see justice and democracy are wasted on the population. What about the right to a fair trial and not being proven guilty? This is a trial by social media. The men were acquitted by a jury of peers and that’s how justice works. You can’t just get a lynch mob on the go and overturn the courts

BlueSapp · 29/03/2018 15:03

I hope this is something you never have to experience, 4funnels Jewelofthenile

BlueSapp · 29/03/2018 15:07

The laws in the UK need to be challenged on a legal basis, that is how change happens, that is how we evolve as a society, if everyone sits back and says nothing, then nothing will ever change.

Rallies and protests are a valid expression to challenge what people see as an injustice, the legal system does not always get it right! it is only fair that it can be challenged!

Lethaldrizzle · 29/03/2018 15:10

Jewel and funnel - having been the woman on the other side, i know first hand that not guilty does not mean they are innocent. I am perfectly rational thank you

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:10

“What about the right to a fair trial.”
If this trial had been fair you might have a point. It looks like there might have been some issues with it. The questioning and summing up as reported are, to be charitable, somewhat out of line with what might be regarded as usual in some respects at least.

Maryz · 29/03/2018 15:10

We all accept they have been acquitted of rape. What many of us who have followed the trial are questioning is why it looked as though there was one girl, not four men, in the dock.

The law and the judge's directions meant that they could only be found guilty if the jury knew with absolutely certainty that the men knew with absolute certainty that she didn't consent. And obviously they thought she consented; reading their messages it was obvious that they thought any woman would consent to anything they wanted to do, that treating women like shit was perfectly normal.

In no other crime can someone say "I thought it was ok to steal that/hit that/lie about that, I reckoned the victim wouldn't mind" and the onus be on the victim to prove without a shadow of a doubt that s/he did mind.

Rape law is backwards.

Jewelofthenile · 29/03/2018 15:11

Wheresmy

Tour response illustrates my point. You just wont listen to reason. Evidence is of no value to you. A jury's decision is of no value to you. The justice system is of no value to you.

If you can't listen to reason how can you expect anybody to take your concerns seriously.

Christ. Even a sober, female witness who literally walked in on the people involved, didn't believe the woman was being raped.

How much more proof would you like?

What evidence would a man accused of rape have to to satisfy you that he was innocent?

4Funnels · 29/03/2018 15:11

Something very strange about telling a woman you hope she's never raped @BlueSapp

What laws do you think need to be changed?

Innocent until proven guilty?

Proven beyond reasonable doubt?

There's a frightening shift towards mob-mentality but the problem is is that the mob is uneducated. No one on this thread knows exactly what happened in the courtroom yet so many think they know better than those who did.

Stillscreaming · 29/03/2018 15:11

jury decided, based upon evidence presented, that the defendants weren't guilty. Or are you all suggesting that an accusation is proof enough!

I don't think that an accusation is enough but I recognise that 'beyond reasonable doubt' in a society where rape myths are accepted wisdom is too high a burden of proof. I understand that 'beyond reasonable doubt' can't be changed, so I'd like to see rape myths examined before anyone goes into the jury box.

I'd be happy when the conviction rate is approximately the same as for any other violent crime. I'm just looking for an level playing field, where juries understand rape myths are nothing more than myths. No advantages, just getting rid of proven prejudices.

No one is actually lynching anyone, a couple of petitions are being signed.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:11

Ps where is this lynch mob?
(Can I join?)

Maryz · 29/03/2018 15:12

We need to move from "she didn't say no" to "she enthusiastically said yes" as the definition of consent.

I hope that's the standard that we are all teaching our sons, and that boys are being taught in schools (and players in rugby teams Hmm).

Maryz · 29/03/2018 15:14

And by the way, Jewel, the "sober female witness" gave evidence that they were having sex, which PJ denies, so either he is lying or she didn't actually see what was happening Hmm

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:14

Jewel, if reason is what you have to offer, you might have a point.
What you offered was a rather intemperate onslaught on the intellectual capacities of those who you disagree with, using tired sexist dismissal. On that basis I declined to take you seriously. I continue to do so.

4Funnels · 29/03/2018 15:15

@Maryz

In no other crime can someone say "I thought it was ok to steal that/hit that/lie about that, I reckoned the victim wouldn't mind"

You're confused there because stealing, hitting and lying are all wrong and the first two are illegal.

A better analogy would be was it a gift or was it stolen and that's actually a very good one.

Whether sex occurred is beyond doubt. Whether it was 'given' or 'stolen' is exactly what was decided in court.

"Rape law is backwards."

They should have to prove consent was given? In other words, guilty until proven innocent?

4Funnels · 29/03/2018 15:15

@Maryz

In no other crime can someone say "I thought it was ok to steal that/hit that/lie about that, I reckoned the victim wouldn't mind"

You're confused there because stealing, hitting and lying are all wrong and the first two are illegal.

A better analogy would be was it a gift or was it stolen and that's actually a very good one.

Whether sex occurred is beyond doubt. Whether it was 'given' or 'stolen' is exactly what was decided in court.

"Rape law is backwards."

They should have to prove consent was given? In other words, guilty until proven innocent?

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:19

Sex as gift ...
some problems with the mind that came up with this I think

4Funnels · 29/03/2018 15:21

It was continuing @MaryZ's analogy and I think the 'given vs taken' point stands.

Wheresmyfuckingcupcake · 29/03/2018 15:22

Yes, I suppose you would.
Gah

Maryz · 29/03/2018 15:23

So using the gift analogy (which is a bit bleurgh when relating to sex, but let's go with it anyway).

I take a valuable item from my friend's house. He says I've stolen it, I say it was a gift. Do I have to prove it was a gift or does he have to prove it wasn't a gift?

I suspect the former (I have to prove he gave it to me or return it) but in the case of rape it's the latter - he has to prove without a shadow of a doubt that it WASN'T a gift.

That's what I mean about it being backwards.