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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wish that going for a first trimester abortion was seen like have a tooth out?

477 replies

QueenArseClangers · 27/03/2018 11:26

Without all the societal guilt and judgement heaped upon women?
I really wished it was viewed as a bog standard procedure, I’m sure women would feel a lot more in control of their reproductive health if it was.

OP posts:
YourWanMajella · 28/03/2018 12:18

None of the above are accidents

Petal, you are very confused. Having sex may be on purpose, getting pregnant is the accident.
Do you not understand they are different things?

The sex is not accidental. The pregnancy is. A child can understand the difference, why can't you?

Viviennemary · 28/03/2018 12:24

I think the OP is quite wrong in wanting everyone to think having an abortion is a trivial matter. If she finds that so then that's up to her. What about women with partners who don't want a child. Well he says just have an abortion as easy as ABC. It's just a cluster of cells no big deal. What's the problem.

BertrandRussell · 28/03/2018 12:31

The point is not about making it a trivial matter. It is about making it an easily accessible safe medical procedure like any other without moral judgement or requirement for secrecy.

Viviennemary · 28/03/2018 12:35

Then you are imposing your moral standards on somebody else. People are entitled to live by the code of ethics they choose to. Abortion is legal in this country. I don't agree with people campaigning outside abortion clinics. But I also don't accept that people should change their own moral values in order to be seen to comply with that of others.

BertrandRussell · 28/03/2018 12:41

People are entirely free to apply their moral codes to themselves. They are not free to apply them to other people. And legal medical treatment shout be free from moral judgement. And should not involve any element of punishment-as the procedure for getting an abortion often does.

Jaxtellerswife · 28/03/2018 12:59

No, it shouldn't. Because it isn't.
I'm pro choice if that's relevant but it's a far from ideal situation for anyone and can have long term effects on people. Added to that it is ethically a bit of a question mark.

BertrandRussell · 28/03/2018 13:06

The ethics and the long term effects are entirely a matter for the womn concerned. Nobody else. So the actual procedure should be free from moral or ethical concerns. Hence the tooth analogy.

YourWanMajella · 28/03/2018 13:08

Then you are imposing your moral standards on somebody else

No, literally the opposite. We're asking everyone else not to impose their moral standards on others.

YourWanMajella · 28/03/2018 13:09

Added to that it is ethically a bit of a question mark

No it isn't, unless you make it so. In which case its only for you.

Viviennemary · 28/03/2018 13:15

Of course it is a matter of ethics and there is quite an interesting article on the BBC website regarding this very matter. To pretend that it isn't and shouldn't be for anybody is ludicrous. It might not be for you but it is for a lot of people. And selective sex abortion isn't allowed in this country. Why not? Euthanasia isn't allowed either at the present time in the UK. Moral values imposed again.

YourWanMajella · 28/03/2018 13:17

To pretend that it isn't and shouldn't be for anybody is ludicrous. It might not be for you but it is for a lot of people

I'm not pretending that it isn't. I'm stating that it isn't as an objective measure. If it is for you and others thats fine, but you can't speak for anyone else. It's not a matter of ethics for me.
I really don't give a bollocks what the bbc has to say about it!

Lizzie48 · 28/03/2018 13:41

Well it is a matter of ethics, wherever you stand on the issues. The question is when does life begin? I've studied ethics at Uni, abortion is very much a big issue there. That's not saying you're in the wrong, btw, but you can't pretend that it isn't an ethical issue. Like the right to die is an ethical issue.

It's the reason why there's a free vote every time the issue is debated in the House of Commons.

YourWanMajella · 28/03/2018 13:42

Well it is a matter of ethics, wherever you stand on the issues. The question is when does life begin? I've studied ethics at Uni, abortion is very much a big issue there. That's not saying you're in the wrong, btw, but you can't pretend that it isn't an ethical issue. Like the right to die is an ethical issue

No. Stop that. For me, it is not a matter of ethics. Do not presume to tell me that I am wrong and it is. It might be for you and for a lot of people, but there is no matter of ethics about it for me. '
It is not pretence, it is the fact of the matter that for ME it is not a matter of ethics. Don't you dare tell me that it is.

ConstantReminder · 28/03/2018 13:44

Wether you like it or not all medical procedures and treatments are subject to ethical judgements when it comes to sustaining, prolonging, preserving or ending life.

Lizzie48 · 28/03/2018 13:47

I'm not saying you're wrong, in what you think. But think about it, it's studied as an ethical issue in universities all over the country. It's an ethical issue whether you like it or not. But it's debated, that's the key point, you believe it's like a tooth being removed, others don't.

It's not something to be scared of, it just means that it's an issue that's debated.

Chienrouge · 28/03/2018 13:52

I really don't give a bollocks what the bbc has to say about it!

And I don’t give a bollocks what you have to say about it.

Chienrouge · 28/03/2018 13:53

Whoops sorry YourWanMajella I got you confused for another poster!

Chienrouge · 28/03/2018 13:54

Big apologies, was reading quickly and got you confused for Justmyownself

TammyWhyNot · 28/03/2018 13:54

It is 100% a matter of ethics for me.
The ethical importance of a woman having 100% dominion over her own body and what happens to it and within it.

It is an ethical view of mine that whilst an embryo / foetus is live, a woman’s right to decide is paramount, without blame or criticism, until a live birth results in a baby independent of the placenta.

Ethics doesn’t mean we all have the same viewpoint. It means we consider things within an ethical framework.

OuchLegoHurts · 28/03/2018 13:57

It absolutely is an ethical issue, no matter what side you find yourself on.

Lizzie48 · 28/03/2018 14:02

Quite right, @TammyWhyNot there's no need to resist the idea that it's an ethical dilemma, as the pro-choice position is one that can be supported ethically. I'm pro-choice up until the point where the baby can survive outside the womb, I'm comfortable with the legal limit of 24 weeks. (I wouldn't have one myself but I would support a friend who felt it was the right decision for her.)

I don't think it's appropriate to compare it to removing a tooth as it's a potential life before that point, and it's an agonising decision for a lot of women. (Although I acknowledge the fact that other women don't feel that way.)

TammyWhyNot · 28/03/2018 14:05

VivienneMary : the ethical consideration in that situation is “whose view takes precedence? “ . To which the vast majority of us would answer ‘the woman’.

A woman should not be pressurised to keep or terminate a pregnancy, including pressure that says ‘abortion is shameful and makes you a bad person and you should feel embarrassed to say that you are having one”.

Free choice should not stigmatise women, and if the procedure did have the same currency as a tooth extraction women might suffer fewer difficulties.

BertrandRussell · 28/03/2018 14:07

We have decided as a society the terms under which women can have abortions. Whenever we revisit this decision ethics are one of the things to be considered. But this is not a matter for consideration by anyone but the woman concerned on a day to day basis.

Lizzie48 · 28/03/2018 14:11

Except that it's not the same, is it? If a woman has a termination then later when she tries to conceive and finds she can't get pregnant, then she may well have regrets later. Not that she made the wrong call, but she will probably think about what might have been.

That doesn't happen with a tooth extraction.

CherryChasingDotMuncher · 28/03/2018 14:41

only don’t agree with girls not using protection and then having abortions on a regular basis to correct their “mistakes.” Or falling pregnant to trap someone and it not working so they get rid and move onto the next person they will try and trap

WTAF is this misogynistic bollocks?! Has anyone ever met a woman who's actually admitted to doing this? Who's said "I tried to trap him but it didn't work so I had an abortion"? And by that I don't mean you heard it from your cousin's mates sister. I'm not saying women can't be morally dubious, but I am 99.9% confident these examples are rarer than hen's teeth.

Also, a man can't be trapped into having a baby, unless she steals his sperm. When he ejaculates into a woman's vagina, condom-clad or not, he is knowingly risking a chance of impregnating her. And from that he is aware of his rights (or lack thereof) with regard to whether or not she keeps that baby. He could abstain if he doesn't want to get anyone pregnant - I know the thought of a man not getting his dick wet is very alarming to some, but that's the truth of it. Here's another idea - only have sex with women you trust to make decision compatible with your own beliefs. Again, heaven forbid a man actually gets to know someone before shagging them, I realise this is quite the ask, but hey, I'm just thinking of them!

Finally, these people who say "abortions are fine unless she uses it as contraception" (not possible BTW) how do you propose that is policed? Are we to just expect honesty from a women seeking an abortion on her reason for doing it? Would a doctor make a judgement on wether she's being truthful? Would it go to a panel? Who decides the terms and who decides the outcome for each individual?

Let's face it, that sounds like a lot of work a more money the NHS can barely afford. So why not just stick to the system we have now, which does not let us judge wether a woman's reason for an abortion is good enough or not. Or, even better, not make her give a reason at all.

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