To think that “butch “lesbian identity is being erased.

[Queenofwands]

I was chatting to a taxi driver who said she was a lesbian. As we were talking she said that she was getting pressure from her family to undergo a sex change. She said she was confused because she had previously thought of herself as a tomboy. We talked and it became clear that she felt there was no place for her in society . She looked in her early twenties and to my eyes not even particularly boyish. It made me think has being a gay woman who is not especially girly become conflated with being transgender?

It happened at my kids school and has already happened to the Guides

What happened though? Did your children tell you about it? Whatever your children have told you, I'm guessing that unlike Orangpie, the children and parents going through this have never talked to you about their experiences so why do you consider yourself so knowledgeable on the subject?

Did you bind your budding breasts, not shave your legs, wish you where growing facial hair,going as far to use makeup to create a facial hair shadow and cut your hair short?

I'm a woman. When I was a child I took a male name. I didn't shave my legs as a teen, nor do I now. I hated my pubertal body, including my breasts. I spent my twenties with a short-back-and-sides (when it was unusual for a girl/young woman to do so). I'm still a woman. I don't "feel" like a woman, I just am a woman.

My DS has long, long hair - his choice - and has almost all of his life. He has always expressed a preference for it long, even in the face of social and family pressure (I'm cool with it but his beloved uncle nags him to have it cut constantly). He's still a boy.

the children and parents going through this have never talked to you about their experiences
They have though.
Well the parents have.

ArcheryAnnie

Because just as you know your gender they know theirs. To try force them to be something they know they are not is wrong. Just as we progressed and realised gay conversion therapy doesn't work society will progress on this also.

ArcheryAnnie and SpringHen

Did you ever say and think that your where men though? Did you tell your Doctors?

Dungeon you seem desperate to disbelieve this and that is understandable. Its regression sold as progress and its so ludacris that it sounds like paranoid delusions.

Its not though its in black and white. You dont need to take my word for it you can read the Guides redefining of girls all for yourself.

Because just as you know your gender they know theirs

Im not any gender. I am against gender steriotypes.
I am a female woman because of my sex.

well the parents have.

How many parents. Would these be parents who are against their children being transgender by any chance? I can't imagine anyone who is supportive of their child wanting to talk to you about it. And I certainly can't imagine a transgender teenager confiding in you. More likely they would consider you as a bigoted old dinosaur. I know my DD (who is lesbian and very happy to be female) certainly would. To her mind anyone who is transphobic is quite likely to be homophobic too.

RatRolyPoly Thank you. I think a lot of people are probably not aware that that pressure to transition/mastectomies/go on T has been around for decades, some of the 'classics' like Stone Butch Blues talk about it and as I said I've heard older lesbians talking about it much like what I went through, it's just wasn't as public as it is now but that's true of most things. I have plenty of concerns but I think the focus on Unis, which have always been a bubble, and social media ignores bigger issues which I've rambled about on other threads.

I don't know about nurseries, but when my oldest was in speech therapy because of his difficulty in understanding and asking questions, among other issues, and he had failed in one of the test to tell the little cartoon boys and girls apart, they did spend weeks teaching him what was essentially gender stereotypes. Like he would be given a bunch of items and had to decide whether a boy or girl would like it. This was about 8ish years ago and the icons were clearly far older as one had a cassette walkman and another was a razor but it was an old fashioned straight razor that looked more like a crudely drawn knife. I made a complaint about it and in the end chose not pursue further with that therapist after the first 6 weeks. Lots of BS gets taught, particularly I think to disabled kids not hitting certain 'milestones' involving gender that are considered normal, but I think it's certain schools and businesses jumping onto a bandwagon thinking they're doing good rather than anything malicious.

Some of it needs to be challenged, some of it very strongly, I worry about a lot of it but...I'm not sure a lot of how it is being framed - often like a new dangerous sinister threat out for our kids - is helping anyone. I see it as more of a continuation of issues society has not dealt with. Even where my worries lie most - with young adults self medicating on hormones with too little support and stability - it feels like a continuation of other self medicating trends we've seen like pain killers and other various drugs. I think both sides are creating smokescreens of fake concern and caring but not really helping much.

Because just as you know your gender they know theirs.

Except that's not true, orangepie. I have thought about this very carefully over many decades - the language has changed in the meantime, but it's something I've thought about my whole life, as I've known many other gender nonconforming people and have been in LGBT+ circles my whole life. I have actually wondered at times if I might eventually transition, though I probably didn't put it in words like that at the time.

And after many years of considering it, I have come to the conclusion that I have absolutely no innate gender identity at all. I don't "know" my gender, because I don't have one. And this isn't some special category - after years of talking to friends (gay and straight, gender nonconforming and not) I find this is a very common condition, not special at all.

Furthermore to that, I have come to believe gender is a social construct and a total crock of shit, which isn't helpful to anyone but which actively oppresses women.

So no, I don't know my gender. I don't have a gender.

Oh, and orangepie, transing children is gay conversion therapy.

Medicine/science has no clue what the longterm effects of puberty-blockers or longterm treatment with the opposite's sex hormones are going to be. We. Just. Don't. Know.

What is apparent, is that there is a growing number of trans people in the US in their 20s and 30s now keen to go back to their original sex with a lot of subsequent problems. There is an upsetting suicide rate amongst trans people and those wishes to de-trans.

What do people who think it is harmful to diagnose and treat gender dysphoria in children think should be done to aid children whose gender identity issues cause them distress to the extent that they mutilate their genitals? What should we do with children who engage in serious deliberate self harm up to and including attempts to end their life? This is a genuine question- I really, really would like to understand what people think should happen.

I have come to believe gender is a social construct and a total crock of shit, which isn't helpful to anyone but which actively oppresses women

As a genderconforming, heterosexual woman I totally agree with that

Did you ever say and think that your where men though? Did you tell your Doctors?

If at the time I thought it would have got me breast surgery sooner than I planned, yes I 100% would have!

If I had been told that there were hormone pills that would make me feel like I "fit" and take away the teenage angst of feeling "wrong" and not being comfortable in your own skin, then maybe

Luckily back then it was just called puberty/teen angst & being a rebel/tomboy so I didnt.

One ofy DDS friends 14 is finding out about transitioning.She is tall,not much over weight but very broad and dresses in a boyish way,.She has been a lesbian for a few years.Now she is talking after transitioning no body dysmorphia she just feels that she is a boy.
Her friends are all taking it in their stride,they all have labels,it seems to be the thing atm.

No, basically. There are plenty of butch women around, both older and younger and it's got nothing to do with being trans. Gender and sexuality aren't the same thing. I'd say this is unusual - if your story's true and you have found someone who's family are so appalled that she's gay they'd rather she'd be a transman.
The transmen I know would have been considered 'butch' lesbians before trans-ing by some people but that's because people like to stick unnecessary and inaccurate labels on people/situations...

sinceyouask, what should happen IMO is that these kids should have timely and highly specialist access to support and psychological therapies, to try and explore what their distress stems from.

An upsetting number of trans young people have a background of abuse/sexual assault or are experiencing confusion about their changing body and sexuality. They need a nurturing and understanding support environment, not hormones/hormone blockers and surgery.

it seems to be the thing atm.

Yes, it IS a 'thing' atm - which is fine, as long as no longterm harm is being done.

I have seen the bruising and pressure sores caused by breast binding, the distress of non-genderconforming kids and there is plenty of anecdotal reports of distress in later years/fertility issues/MH problems.

How many parents. Would these be parents who are against their children being transgender by any chance?

Dungeon I can see that you are DESPERATE to disbelieve me but as I have already stated these are parents who told their kids peers and adults to re-pronoun their YOUNG child so not anti trans

One of which had weekly playdates with my child so Ive spent many afternoons in the playground nodding and smiling while the mum talked.

Im sorry I know you want to rewrite this so it isnt true, but there it is.

is really quite good at giving a short overview about quite how complex the physical and mental changes are that goes on during puberty. Well worth watching. I've stolen this from a current thread about boys' puberty

ArcheryAnnie
So a trans woman that is into other women is gay conversion therapy to you?

orangepie telling gender nonconforming kids - most of whom will not be trans-identifying adults, but many of whom will grow up to be gay - that they are "really" a different sex because of their gender nonconformity is gay conversion therapy.

And a transwoman that is into women is just a straight man. I have read too many "my penis is not like a man's penis, it's a female body part, and it's transphobic not to recognise that" accounts to have any truck with that nonsense any more.

Dungeon Im not "scared of transpeople" i.e. Transphobic.

I am gender critical. As in I am against gender steriotypes. Geddit?

ArcheryAnnie
Actually gender nonconforming are not trans, they present at will either using gender neutral pronouns like they/zie or switching to he/her depending on mood, they know they are not trans and don't wan't to transition they are not MTF or FTM just gender fluid nonconforming.

These people are actually more prominent than trans people and are the ones mumsnet and the likes have the most issues with as a non conforming person stands out in the womens restroom and the like so bigots get in a huff.

A lot of actual young trans girls that hormones in their teens pass very well and get no hassle as they conform to their real gender and want to get on with their lives.