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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think that “butch “lesbian identity is being erased.

277 replies

Queenofwands · 23/03/2018 05:00

I was chatting to a taxi driver who said she was a lesbian. As we were talking she said that she was getting pressure from her family to undergo a sex change. She said she was confused because she had previously thought of herself as a tomboy. We talked and it became clear that she felt there was no place for her in society . She looked in her early twenties and to my eyes not even particularly boyish. It made me think has being a gay woman who is not especially girly become conflated with being transgender?

OP posts:

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 12:24

Loving how nobody calls bullshit on morningseleven and orangepie knowing apparently trans young children....because you agree with them.

But I cant possibly know any

ArcheryAnnie · 23/03/2018 12:26

Of all the parents of trans kids that I know, none of them wanted this and all have struggled to some extent with grief, fear and prejudice.

The difficulty is, MorningsEleven, that the main prejudice is likely to have been their own, and their over-rigid ideas about what makes a boy and what makes a girl. We see this again and again, from the stories that parents of "trans" children tell. I have no doubt that they love their children, and want to do the best for them, but I don't think they get a pass for all that, when it too often ends in a child being messed up unnecessarily.

orangepie · 23/03/2018 12:27

I work in LGBT groups, parents come to us for support. And yes trans and gay are still a smaller minority but as a LGBT we do we a lot of them.

Stillscreaming · 23/03/2018 12:29

@ArcheryAnnie

That woman is a therapist, anyone can call themselves a therapist. Here's where British children are actually assessed, after a two year wait:

gids.nhs.uk

ArcheryAnnie · 23/03/2018 12:30

School nurses aren't giving out puberty blockers. Ask them.

The Childline website is openly suggesting them to children as an option, without mentioning the risks:

"young trans people can get medicines to slow down the body changes of puberty until they're sure of their feelings"

This is why, after decades of financially supporting the NSPCC, I cancelled my direct debit to them. It's so irresponsible.

orangepie · 23/03/2018 12:32

ArcheryAnnie

You do see trans girl complain because their parents don't believe they are trans because they don't wear dresses and act all girly. A lot of them just wear jeans and hoodies because that's what they feel comfortable in but people question them because they don't act all feminine.

We have had girls complain their parents tell them they are not trans because they still play video games. It's seems to a lot the general public unless you act like a stereotypical woman you cannot be trans.

Stillscreaming · 23/03/2018 12:33

The difficulty is, MorningsEleven, that the main prejudice is likely to have been their own, and their over-rigid ideas about what makes a boy and what makes a girl.

Well, thank goodness that the children actually get to see a multi disciplinary team of medical professionals and not just those who'd judge and blame their parents.

DullAndOld · 23/03/2018 12:36

" the children actually get to see a multi disciplinary team of medical professionals "

people always use this word 'professionals' to talk about teachers, social workers, doctors and so on...it is generally used as a way of shutting down debate.
"But the professionals say so"...

Stillscreaming · 23/03/2018 12:38

*The Childline website is openly suggesting them to children as an option, without mentioning the risks:

"young trans people can get medicines to slow down the body changes of puberty until they're sure of their feelings"*

It's normal to tell people that there is medical help available for their problems without pointing out the risks. We see plenty of women on MN reminded that anti depressants are available and might help. That doesn't mean that you can pick them up at the sweetshop.

People are prescribed medicines by qualified doctors who point out the risks and benefits. In the case of puberty blockers, this is after a referral from a GP, a two year waiting list and a full assessment by a consultants psychiatrist, with input from a team of healthcare professionals.

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 12:39

Its so shit for kids these days "you are the gender you feel "

Well I sure as fuck didnt "feel like a woman" when I was going through puberty, I felt like a hot mess in a strange alien mutating body. I wonder what sort of advice and "support" I woulda got if I expressed that as a teen today??

Stillscreaming · 23/03/2018 12:42

people always use this word 'professionals' to talk about teachers, social workers, doctors and so on...it is generally used as a way of shutting down debate.

From the Tavistock website, this is the list of professionals, I'm talking about:

Clinical psychologists

Counselling psychologists

Systemic and family psychotherapists

Child and adolescent psychotherapists

Social workers

Child and adolescent psychiatrists

Paediatric endocrinologists (medical doctors for children and young people who are experts in the hormonal and physical changes associated with growing up)

Clinical nurse specialists (nurses with further training in endocrinology or a related area)

Obviously, you might know more than the combined knowledge of those professionals but I don't feel that I'm qualified to tell them how to prescribe to their patients.

orangepie · 23/03/2018 12:43

SpringHen

Did you feel like you where a man?

DullAndOld · 23/03/2018 12:43

oh the Tavistock clinic - a very sinister place IMO.

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 12:48

Did you feel like you where a man?

I did not feel like I was of the male sex

But sex doesnt matter right? Its all about gender now right

So by todays standards, yes! I guess if we're talking gender (which FYI I reject)! I chose "boy" subjects at school, I didnt "get" the social norms of being a girl in society. I had short hair & wore gender bending clothes. Did "manly" hobbies and rebelled a lot against gender steriotypes. I dabbled with bisexuality and didnt know where I fit. I was uncomfortable in my skin.

All normal female teen experiences and part of growing into a woman.

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 12:51

I also believed that life would have been easier as a man. My relationship with my parents more straightforward etc.

Early stages of feminism.

Dungeondragon15 · 23/03/2018 12:51

I wonder what the personal experience of those who are transphobic is? You all sound very much like my grandmother talking when you say children or parents nowadays do this or that or are told this or that at schools. Do you have children and have they told you this are regarding their friends or teaching at school are you just going on what you have read on twitter etc.

peachgreen · 23/03/2018 12:52

@Stillscreaming I usually avoid trans threads like the plague because I find them so disheartening and exhausting, but just wanted to add my voice in support of your very sensible and considered posts on this thread.

ArcheryAnnie · 23/03/2018 12:52

Well, doesn't this prove my point? That too many parents are overly invested in the "right" way to be a boy or a girl, and that clothes preferences, toy preferences, etc, matter and make a difference to whether you are a boy or a girl?

LoveYouSo · 23/03/2018 12:52

Yanbu. I also think that gender non-conforming women, in general, are being erased. There's so much pressure for women to conform to gender stereotypes. Transgender ideology is the primary reinforcer of this in modern day society. Gay men who are happy being effeminate males/TIMs are also being pushed out by the ideology.

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 12:53

Do you have children and have they told you this are regarding their friends or teaching at school are you just going on what you have read on twitter etc.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I wish I didnt believe it was happening but it is and has.
It happened at my kids school and has already happened to the Guides

orangepie · 23/03/2018 12:54

SpringHen

Did you bind your budding breasts, not shave your legs, wish you where growing facial hair,going as far to use makeup to create a facial hair shadow and cut your hair short?

I asked you if you felt male not that your sex was male, Did you feel your gender was male?

if not you where not confused about your gender you knew you where female and not trans, so why do you not believe in teens that do know they feel they are the wrong sex.

ArcheryAnnie · 23/03/2018 12:55

It's normal to tell people that there is medical help available for their problems without pointing out the risks.

Stillscreaming but this is a site for children. Children. Not adults, children. Who by definition don't yet have the capacity to assess risk.

It's planting the idea in their heads, on a public site aimed specifically for children to read unfiltered, and which is specifically designed so that children will trust the information they provide, that they don't have to go through puberty if they don't want to. That is a massive, massive, horrible mistake, and I sincerely believe that some years down the line that the NSPCC will be forced to apologise to the children it misled in this way.

orangepie · 23/03/2018 13:00

ArcheryAnnie

Exactly only way to know a person is trans is for them to say it, and once they do you respect that.

LoveYouSo
In LGBT groups you actually see a lot more gender fluidity than trans people.

ArcheryAnnie · 23/03/2018 13:03

Exactly only way to know a person is trans is for them to say it, and once they do you respect that.

Why should I be forced to respect a lie based on a series of sexist and homophobic stereotypes, orangepie, even if the person telling me the lie sincerely believes it to be true?

SpringHen · 23/03/2018 13:05

Did you bind your budding breasts
Yes. They got very big very young & I instantly got a lot of ADULT male attention while I was still underage. I hated them and hid them and refused to buy bras, If I was taken I would cry, no sob! I dreamed of having surgery on them when I got older (dont want it now) I love my breasts now that Ive grown into them but when they first developed they caused me a lot of distress. This is not an uncommon FEMALE experience.

not shave your legs
I dont shave my body hair now, am I less of a woman?

wish you where growing facial hair,going as far to use makeup to create a facial hair shadow
No, but we're repeatedly told that you dont need to want to change your body to be trans these days

and cut your hair short?
Yes. Why? Cant girls do that?

I asked you if you felt male not that your sex was male, Did you feel your gender was male? I answered that already, if were talking gender steriotypes & I had to chose I wouldnt have called myself girly.

if not you where not confused about your gender you knew you where female and not trans, so why do you not believe in teens that do know they feel they are the wrong sex.
Sex? I thought we were talking gender not sex as you stated above?

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