To think that “butch “lesbian identity is being erased.

[Queenofwands]

I was chatting to a taxi driver who said she was a lesbian. As we were talking she said that she was getting pressure from her family to undergo a sex change. She said she was confused because she had previously thought of herself as a tomboy. We talked and it became clear that she felt there was no place for her in society . She looked in her early twenties and to my eyes not even particularly boyish. It made me think has being a gay woman who is not especially girly become conflated with being transgender?

dungeon if the religion monitoring section was erased to make room for a bigger ethnicity section, and I didnt like that, would that define me as racist?

SpringHen You haven't just been arguing about monitoring section of a form though have you? Most of your posts don't even mention it. Your posts display a strong intolerance of transgender people. That is what makes you transphobic.

Blimey, I don't know many lesbians but none I"ve known wanted to be men.

Lesbians being women will be too sensible for this bullshit. Also, whose parents are going to talk a child who doesn't want a sex change in to a sex change. You talk your child in to....... going to college or changing job or doing a driving tes.t

@Queenofwands

I have only got to page 4 and am on my way back to work. I post only to say this is 100 pc true. I could post lots of info which would possibly identify the driver to convince you, but obviously won’t.

It's alright, someone has claimed to know three trans preschoolers, even if you were fibbing, you've been totally trumped.

Also, whose parents are going to talk a child who doesn't want a sex change in to a sex change. You talk your child in to....... going to college or changing job or doing a driving test.

I saw an interview with the parent of a trans teenager, she said something like,

"...talk her into transitioning? I can't talk her into cleaning her f*cking room".

Which, I think, is a sentiment most parents of teenagers can empathise with.

Your posts display a strong intolerance of transgender people. That is what makes you transphobic.

Such as. Specifically?

Such as. Specifically?

Ha Ha. Sorry, but it would take me all day to go through your many posts and pick out those that suggest you are not the most tolerant of transgender people.

absolutely ridiculous..sexuality has nothing to do with gender...

she is who she is... like me, a female who has a female partner but HATES labels..femme, butch...its the f%^&ing 21st century....
these ideologies need to go....nothing to do with a sex change

FTLOG

Dungeondragon15
So despite you repeatedly calling me transphobic through the thread you cannot quote one specific example of actual transphobia?

@PerfectlyDone, thank you for answering.

sinceyouask, what should happen IMO is that these kids should have timely and highly specialist access to support and psychological therapies, to try and explore what their distress stems from.
And if they get that timely, specialist support and it is concluded that their distress stems from gender dysphoria? Is it acceptable then for them to be treated for it? (Again, genuine question, aiming for non argumentative tone...)

An upsetting number of trans young people have a background of abuse/sexual assault or are experiencing confusion about their changing body and sexuality. They need a nurturing and understanding support environment, not hormones/hormone blockers and surgery.
In all honesty, I think they can have both, although I do think surgery for young people should only happen very, very rarely. Medication to delay the physical changes of puberty, though, I think is entirely reasonable- especially if their distress does relate to other trauma and is only exacerbated by by the physical development of puberty.

I work in mental health, currently in an inpatient setting and every trans person I have met professionally has had the fight of all time to even get a referral to gender services, let alone get medication relating to it. They consistently say their distress is because their gender identity is not accepted by their loved ones and 'the system', not that their gender identity issues are a symptom of their distress- or they say that their gender identity issues are entirely separate from their mental health issues. It upsets me that there appears to be a chunk of people who dismiss the lived experiences, opinions, wishes and feelings of these individuals. It's really worrying when there is a willingness to tell people that they do not feel what they say they feel, they are not who they say they are, they do not experience what they say they experience and they are wrong about what is hurting them.

Springhen, I think it's fair to say that you haven't shown the most open minded attitude. I steer away from terms like 'transphobia' myself but claiming that you know three transitioning preschoolers is perpetuating a damaging myth. Claiming that you're bring erased by someone else bring recognised, is damaging. To keep offering up these views, without any evidence, makes to look like you came to them from a place of prejudice, not informed opinion.

but claiming that you know three transitioning preschoolers is perpetuating a damaging myth
Im not the only one on the thread to have known parents of young trans kids. But because my take on it is different to yours& theirs my aquaintances are mythical but theirs are real?
Funny how transkids exist when it suits you and theyre mythical when it doesnt.

Claiming that you're bring erased by someone else bring recognised, is damaging.
Asking why BOTH cant be recognised instead of one REPLACING the other is damaging how?

orange In my experience and the numbers I've seen, many if not most trans women won't have medically transitioned - or started to identify as trans - at the age most UK students leave college. That may happen over time with how society changes but that isn't how it is right now.

The hit people take when transitioning is an important issue, but I think it's pretty obvious that the reason it's Gender Pay Gap rather than Sex Pay Gap is how the phrase Sex Pay sounds. 'BBC Sex Pay Scandal' has quite a different ring to it.

I can see the argument that the small portion who identify as trans, even with Stonewall's odd definition, is unlikely to throw off many stats such as discussing pay and other issues though I think things like crime and health needs more careful precision...for some of us, our sex is important and I don't get the argument not to include it as well at least. It is a protected characteristic for a reason. As much as I've hated mine at times, my whole body is female , not just my gentials, and my whole life has been affected by that. I think my body deserves just as much recognition and consideration as however I identify and I do not understand why wanting that specifically to be recognized and for female to signify my body, and not whatever my gender is, is wrong.

It upsets me that there appears to be a chunk of people who dismiss the lived experiences, opinions, wishes and feelings of these individuals. It's really worrying when there is a willingness to tell people that they do not feel what they say they feel, they are not who they say they are, they do not experience what they say they experience and they are wrong about what is hurting them.

Hopefully you also apply that to womens lived experiences and women being told that they cannot define themselves

Ellen isn't butch 😂😂

Dressing in a "masculine" way doesn't = butch.

And, they're just clothes anyway. They're not masculine clothes.

I am not and have never been on the scene so I don't know what it's like in the clubs but I see properly butch lesbians all the time just living their life.

I think it's like when you get a new car, you never saw that make before but now you spot them everywhere.

When you're a lesbian you spot lesbians everywhere just living their lives.

@ DN4GeekinDerby

I think my body deserves just as much recognition and consideration as however I identify and I do not understand why wanting that specifically to be recognized and for female to signify my body, and not whatever my gender is, is wrong.

I'd have no problem with that, it's just when it's presented in terms of moral panic 'I'm being erased by the the trans' that I find the idea offensive. If you want something for you, that's cool.

Personally, I'd find it handy to have a box that said I had no intentions of having children and have no childcare or caring responsibilities. I'm sure that women who have these things are nearly as good employees me as but drawing those distinctions to benefit me and my employment prospects, feels only fair, they are a biological fact. Perhaps we could have a physically attractive box too, those women who are less decoratively gifted could be screened out at the start. Attractiveness has been proven to be a factor in employment success, it's only fair that I can advertise this biological fact, it would make me feel more recognised, as a woman. Tallness too, tall people get promoted more, so it would only be fair to throw that it, it's important to me. If we're talking about bodies rather than actual skills, I should be able to push my physical advantages, shouldn't I?

I really have thought about this long and hard. I am 70 years old and I don't really know what it "feels like to be a woman." I know what it felt like to go though puberty, though some medical issues that resulted from my sex, and through menopause, and I know what it has felt like to be discriminated against because of my sex, but I can honestly say that I don't really have any real sense of some sort of essential woman-ness that is felt, even though I think most people would describe my gender expression as mainly feminine.

I am a second-wave gender critical feminist, but consider myself an LGBT ally, and that includes the "T", but I believe that gender is a social construct and that society is sadly moving more toward reinforcing gender stereotypes and some of the ideology around trans issues reinforces that. Many of us second-wavers believe that in a perfect world without gender stereotypes, people of either sex could just be who they are with fewer created labels, while recognizing that the oppression of women has, and still is, based primarily on our sex.

I am 20 years your junior but identify with all you're saying

Stillscreaming
I think you know full well that the monitoring boxes are not used in that way

spring

So despite you repeatedly calling me transphobic through the thread you cannot quote one specific example of actual transphobia?

Yep...they wont do this

I have seen people show examples of transphobia that have been spot on...but i can count them on one hand

I also agree with seneca

but I can honestly say that I don't really have any real sense of some sort of essential woman-ness that is felt, even though I think most people would describe my gender expression as mainly feminine.

If grown ass women cant figure out what this "feeling of being a woman" is supposed to be then how the hell are young people going to feel when asked if they identify with it or if they are "other".

Just had a chance to read the replies. Firstly I am a lesbian in my forties who has been on the scene ( though not so much now) since I was 17. My first partner had short hair and felt uncomfortable wearing dresses and make up etc...she was considered butch. To those who asked if I know what a butch lesbian is I would have to say no....but I think anyone would struggle to define it. I really don’t see butch as a masculine trait, more a variation of how some women look, dress, externally.
Going back to the taxi driver she was a white working class girl. She is from the same culture as me. It’s a culture that puts a lot of emphasis on appearance and fitting in. For example the strong message I got growing up is it’s one thing to be a lesbian but it’s another thing altogether to look/dress like one.
I didn’t press her on why her parents were pushing her to transition but it seemed as though they were trying to help her in some way. My worry is that they” got” trans but didn’t get gay...butch looking. Thinking about it I would suspect that she had some issues and they felt a sex change would be a quick fix. NB She said when she had lived abroad she felt no internal pressure to transition.
I have learned something from all these replies and that is that gender non binary ( zie pronouns etc) and trans isn’t the same thing. I don’t know many young people and was confused by that.
I hope that all this discussion amongst the young evolves into a consensus that female can be many things, and that there is room to be “butch” without being male/trans. I do think that “butch” lesbians suffer more from homophobia and I really hope that some are not trying to make sense of themselves by going down the trans route. It’s a choice that wasn’t there when I was young but I worry that even though I am not at the butch end of the spectrum at all I would have wondered if I was trans. This is because I did worry I had a male energy as a child mainly because I wanted to be daddy when playing house and the doctor not the nurse!
The other thing I have learned is that Ellen can’t be butch because even straight women think she is beautiful (smile)

Emoji fail :)