To think that “butch “lesbian identity is being erased.

[Queenofwands]

I was chatting to a taxi driver who said she was a lesbian. As we were talking she said that she was getting pressure from her family to undergo a sex change. She said she was confused because she had previously thought of herself as a tomboy. We talked and it became clear that she felt there was no place for her in society . She looked in her early twenties and to my eyes not even particularly boyish. It made me think has being a gay woman who is not especially girly become conflated with being transgender?

What recent legal changes are you talking about?

I didnt mention any as you well know.

Im talking about firms and organisations changing their paperwork from "sex" to "gender"

SpringHen

Since you don't believe in gender do you think the Gender Pay Gap is not a thing?

I suppose that you can identify as what you like but you can't change the meaning of words and then get miffed when others don't go along with you.

Im not the one changing meanings here

The word exists. Look: gender gender gender

Noone believes tgat I dont think the word exists, Ive used it dozens of times on this thread alone

Gender replacing sex as an identifier I do not believe in or agree with. They are not interchangable
"Assigned gender at birth" is mythical nonsense
Asking me what gender I identiy with is not auditing whether I am male or female.

Since you don't believe in gender do you think the Gender Pay Gap is not a thing?

The phrase was coined when gender meant sex. You know full well that it doesnt any more. You also know full well that it was ALWAYS about sex.

SpringHen
Yes we know back in the day they mixed the meaning hence Sex on the birth cert for gender.

Do you think trans women out of college get paid 20% more than cis women because of their sex organs or will they be judged as female and face the same gender discrimination as cis women.

Yes we know back in the day they mixed the meaning hence Sex on the birth cert for gender.

Nope. Still meant sex. As in sex organs.

@springhen

You said on the previous page that you didn't believe in gender:

But if they ask about GENDER and not sex, then all of us who dont believe in gender are forced to tick "other" or "non conforming" and so what?

Then you went on to equate it to a religion.

Im talking about firms and organisations changing their paperwork from "sex" to "gender"

And what impact has that had on you?

There have never been such a thing as gender organs. Just sex organs.

Some people interchange the phrases at scans, but not at the birth that has always been sex. I think deep down you must know this too.

And what impact has that had on you?
No longer being counted?
Really?

Then you went on to equate it to a religion

Yes. Some people identify as Christians. And thankfully in THIS country people who dont still get to say they dont believe in it and opt out of the whole thing.

Others opting out hasnt taken away religious peoples protected characteristic. So why do we all need to genderID now instead of stating our sex?

We're not being given the option of opting out of the gender id thing though. See the link below

So why cant we have :
Sex
Male
Female
Other
Prefer not to say

Do you identify as trans or gender fluid
Y
N
Prefer not to say

Ethnicity, religion, etc

Whats wrong with that?
Why does one characteristic get erased and replaced by anothet, instead of being additional & separate?

@orangepie @Stillscreaming it's unbelievably refreshing to see you making these arguments (and making them well!). Thank you and well done!

I have only got to page 4 and am on my way back to work. I post only to say this is 100 pc true. I could post lots of info which would possibly identify the driver to convince you, but obviously won’t. You should watch the documentary taxi driver ... some deep conversations happen at midnight after a night boozing with clients.

Do you think trans women out of college get paid 20% more than cis women because of their sex organs or will they be judged as female and face the same gender discrimination as cis women.

Well firstly I have never IRL met a self professed ciswoman. Im sure they exist there are women who enjoy all things "girly" who may identify that way, but Im yet to hear someons self ID as one

Secondly do you think it doesnt matter to women if the top paid "women" in business are transwomen who trans post career climb? We should be happy that apparently the "gender gap" is apparently closing? Sex matters. It does.

Hi @SpringHen, I'm a self-professed real life ciswoman

waves

I find it actually amusing that you think the gender pay gap is in danger of disappearing because of hordes of trans executives who've transitioned late in life and are now going to skew the figures.

For a start, statistics show that trans women usually take a career hit as a result of transitioning. I can assure you that the majority of them are not banking CEOs and partners in law firms. The pay gap is not closing as a result of transitioning transwomen.

Secondly, the gender pay gap affects women at all economic levels and actually the disparity is greater among the lowest earners. This is to do with the type of jobs which are more often done by women (particularly cleaning, caring and service sector jobs) being undervalued and paid less than jobs of an equivalent skill level which are more normally done by men. The perception of conventional 'women's jobs' as being less worthy and therefore underpaid is a widespread social problem that will be closed by activism seeking recognition for these roles. The statistically tiny number of trans women who may be in these roles will have no appreciable effect on our assessment of the pay gap EVEN IF they bucked the trend of transwomen suffering work discrimination and were paid more than ciswomen.

P.s. no I dont think your example transperson will experience the same discrimination as a woman

I dont think muslims face the same discrimination as disabled people

I dont think black people face the same discrimination as gay people.

(Unless they are a combination of the above).

All are different but important characteristics.

You wouldnt remove the disability section to make space for a religion question would you?

For a start, statistics show that trans women usually take a career hit as a result of transitioning.

There will be no stats to prove your own point if sex is not measured.

Dont you see?

If its measured then you could be proved right, so why dont you want it measured??

Why not support BOTH characteristics?
Really? Why not?
Why does one have to envelop the other?

@SpringHen I'm not saying I don't want it measured. Statistics are already gathered by companies on whether their employees are men or women, and on whether they are cis or trans. I have no objection to the statistics relating to women including transwomen because as far as I'm concerned transwomen are women and we face the same forms of discrimination. I accept that there are additional forms of discrimination which are specific to trans women - but that's why companies collect statistics on whether their employees are trans.

I cannot see what would be gained by adding a third category asking what your birth sex was, unless you think it's essential that a workplace knows what your genitals are.

The statistically tiny number of trans women who may be in these roles will have no appreciable effect on our assessment of the pay gap

The goal posts are rapidly changing so past stats have limited use in future predictions of what would happen post GRA.

SO you think either nothing or good things
I disagree

You hope youre right
I hope YOURE right

But we WONT KNOW if we're not allowed to measure it for accurate new stats will we??

Also, if you think the number of trans men and women in this county are statistically significant enough that not excluding them could warp the conclusions drawn, why are you happy for people to be given the option not to say when asked these questions? The number of people refusing to answer is likely far greater than the number of trans people. Isn't that more of an issue for you?

Dungeon Im not "scared of transpeople" i.e. Transphobic

I think it is up to other people to decide rather than you. Regardless, you don't have to be scared of transpeople to be considered "transphobic".

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/transphobia

I'm concerned transwomen are women and we face the same forms of discrimination. I accept that there are additional forms of discrimination which are specific to trans women
And biological women experience issues which transwomen dont.
Different issues.

but that's why companies collect statistics on whether their employees are trans. have you read the linked thread?

I cannot see what would be gained by adding a third category asking what your birth sex was, unless you think it's essential that a workplace knows what your genitals are.

Its not a NEW section! They always previously asked for sex, now theyre replacing that with gender!

Also, if you think the number of trans men and women in this county are statistically significant enough that not excluding them could warp the conclusions drawn, why are you happy for people to be given the option not to say when asked these questions? The number of people refusing to answer is likely far greater than the number of trans people. Isn't that more of an issue for you?

The issue is that they are not asking anyones sex. Just genderID.

Sex is a protected characteristic.

Dungeon how is wanting ALL protected characteristics to remain showing either dislike or prejudice?

Do you think trans women out of college get paid 20% more than cis women because of their sex organs or will they be judged as female and face the same gender discrimination as cis women.
If they were perceived as 'men' at the time they graduated, then absolutely Yes! And they probably felt entitled to it, like all men who were brought up as men.