To think Mumsnet is OBSESSED

[AccidentalKylie]

I used to read Mumsnet because it was a lot of clever, funny women talking about stuff I was interested in, but it's become a one issue forum. It's exhausting.

Sorry, but how the fuck is it 'exhausting' to ignore threads you're not interested in?!

It's 'exhausting' trying to stop women talking.

I disagree with some above - I do not think that even fully transitioned you have changed sex, so even after surgery will not be in female facilities.

I wish men to be questioned on why they are scared of non conforming men and want them out of their male spaces. Men attacked homosexuality in the past because they were scared of it, no different to the trans debate now.

If they are vulnerable from the same predators as women, then those that attack are the problem. Those that would attack need to be educated to understand differences in male preferences.

I would end changing people's birth certificates - it has led us to potential self ID; reflect on how a law works in practice and leads to unforeseen consequences (self ID).

I think transmen should mean born male transitioned to female. Should be male or transmale on forms etc

Stop bumping the thread, SuitedandBooted. The OP doesn’t want the issues being discussed and you’re just drawing attention to it

I know, PostivelyPERF,
I'm such a bad female-identifying-gendered-person

but where does that leave a transman who IS biologically a female but who may have a penis.

How can someone who is biologically female have a penis?

A faux penis. A phallus. As far as I understand it, it is really quite difficult to fashion someone a functioning penis. Either it will be some sort of prosthesis, or the clitoris will have been enlarged with the use of hormones. I don’t know of any other methods. Who’d want to be a trans man? Sounds like a difficult identity to have

Ellenripleysalienbaby

A Transman may have had surgery to construct a penis-like structure, but they would still have XX chromosomes.

www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie-davis-smith/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-being-a-trans-man-but-were-afraid-to-ask_b_6708606.html

My active chat looked like this the other day! I don't even read or comment on the feminist board so couldn't understand why practically my hole active board was full of it!

How can someone who is biologically female have a penis? confused

Not a real one obviously, but what do you think surgery does for women that want to pass as men?

If a transman has gone to the trouble of having a prosthetic penis attached; they're very unlikely to still want to access places dedicated solely to women.
Certainly not the women's pond? They'd have no good reason for still wanting to hang out there?

Maybe they just want to have the full package, penis AND male privilege?

@happymumof4activekids

My active chat looked like this the other day! I don't even read or comment on the feminist board so couldn't understand why practically my hole active board was full of it!

Have you had a look at the petition?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Do you understand why women are so concerned - especially mothers?

A vulva is not a physical danger to men. Men have single sex spaces for dignity purposes, not for safety.

No it's not a danger to the men, but it's a danger to the owner of a vulva:
Absolutely agree this is a self-ID issue far more than a trans issue, in fact, it's not even a self-ID issue truth be told, it's the potentially inherited rights that self-ID would like to inherit that are the issue, but, since it's impossible to determine the difference between a genuine trans and a faux one using self-ID as a mean to gain access to a female space, then legislation has to somehow try and cater for both instances - a VERY difficult task.

So let's take just some of the multitude of scenarios:

1. A born male wanting to be a woman with no desire for surgery.
   In this instance, he wants to be treated as a 'she' but cannot enter women's spaces so has to enter the men's. This is a danger to the transwoman (absolutely due to men's awful behaviour).
   If this person enter's a female space, women can be exposed to a penis, and can't know if this person is 'genuine' or not.

2. A born male wanted to be a woman and has undergone surgery.
   In this instance, many women have much more faith that the trans is genuine (due to surgery), but argue that the person is still biologically male. There 'seems' to be more acceptance of this person in women's spaces, but it's by no means universally agreed.

3. A born female wanting to be a man and has not undergone surgery.
   If this person wants to be treated as a man and wishes to join the men's areas, they're in real trouble. Once again, this is absolutely down to men's behaviour, but as things stand today, a naked female with breasts and vulva in a men's area is a problem.

4. A born female wanting to be a man and has undergone surgery.
   Unless the surgery is incredibly convincing, they are probably in for a rough ride in a men's area, again down to men's awful behaviour.

So there's only really 1 scenario where acceptance might happen, and even that's not universally agreed. The other 3 scenarios present a real problem for trans.

Again, I use the word 'trans' generically to include those with a true desire to change their gender, and those who might self-ID either on a whim, or for ulterior motives. Sadly, it's not possible to differentiate them unless they've had surgery, and even then there are cases of those who have had surgery who've regretted it, or turned from man, to woman (via surgery) then turned lesbian, which makes for a very complex deciphering of sexual motivation.

For me, Self-ID per se is not the problem, but gaining rights 'just because' someone Self-ID's is. Also, the safety issue in women's areas is obviously a huge issue, but it's not the sole motivation for protecting women's rights. It should be a right regardless of safety, as it is for men.

Either it will be some sort of prosthesis, or the clitoris will have been enlarged with the use of hormones.

It's still not a penis though is it?

Biological females can't have penises, biological males can't have vaginas. By definition.

Right I'm getting sick of this, I'm all for a liberal live-and-let-live attitude towards life and other people, and I have been up until the small hours supporting counselling a friend through feelings of gender dysphoria on occassions too frequent to count. I've had to educate myself fairly extensively on the subject for that specific reason, and from an objective standpoint the science is not in.

I get the desire to want to be on the "right side of history" and to be the "good virtuous person" but if anything the take home from the current debate is that more research into this is badly needed. The studies that support the current trans rhetoric have issues with methodology very much related to sample sizes (amongst others), and there is a body of knowledge that in fact indicates the contrary, although again not conclusive.

However what should give anyone pause is how approaching the subject in the "wrong" way can signal the death of the career of an academic. Coupled with the fact this issue is being politically weaponised to erode the credibility of prominent feminist thinkers and erode the rights and saftey of women. The fact that any side resorts to ad hominem attacks should make it really obvious that as it stands the case is insufficient to stand up on it's own at the present time.

Although I would currently describe myself as trans-skeptic, I don't expect anyone to change their mind on the basis of this one post, and perhaps paradoxically I'd urge you not to. Please, please please if this is an issue that is important to you, and I'd very much argue it IS an important issue, then become converstant with all sides of the debate, and perhaps most crucially the science.

If we go all in on the trans side at this stage of the debate we run the risk of making the current generation of children guinea pigs in a collossal experiment that wouldn't get one inch past an ethics committee in a clinical setting. Please continue to use people's prefered pronouns and continue to treat fellow human beings with respect and diginity, but for heaven's sake just exercise a little bit of caution with all of this.

Biological females can't have penises, biological males can't have vaginas. By definition.

I don't think we're discussing the genuine biological nature of anatomy, but the physical transformation, usually by surgery. Transwomen can have pretty convincing surgery. Transmen can have convincing surgery from the waist up, but less convincing below the waist, but it's slowly getting more and more realistic, however, just because it's fake doesn't mean it should be visible to women, or young girls.

What @CritEqual said. All of it, but particularly this:

If we go all in on the trans side at this stage of the debate we run the risk of making the current generation of children guinea pigs in a collossal experiment that wouldn't get one inch past an ethics committee in a clinical setting. Please continue to use people's prefered pronouns and continue to treat fellow human beings with respect and diginity, but for heaven's sake just exercise a little bit of caution with all of this

I promise not to post it again on this thread but:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

With any medication or medical procedure there needs to be proper scientific research.

Ellen, I totally agree. Was just giving my understanding about how a trans man can have a ‘penis’ (which obviously is not a penis!) because I thought someone had asked but I may have misread that.

"Please continue to use people's preferred pronouns"

I'm sorry, but no.
I actually think it inappropriate to ask this of women.
I detest hearing someone use female pronouns to validate a male, but I wouldn't police the language someone else chooses to use.

But people underestimate hugely the impact it has upon people to hear 'she' instead of 'he'.
Somebody is always going to be hurt, whatever pronouns are used.
I've actively chosen to not hurt women's rights to assert themselves as female and distinguish themselves from males, and those seemingly insignificant pronoun concessions are a huge part of this.

Every time a woman refuses to refer to a man with 'she', she makes it that much easier for other people to see the situation with clarity.

The rest I can get behind! Treating people with respect and dignity, yes, of course.

I agree with Barracker .

OP, if these are popping up in your active threads, it will be because other people are posting on them.

So whilst not everyone will want to join in a particular discussion, clearly there are lots of other people who do.

Barracker, would you really refuse to refer to Jan Morris as she?

Please continue to use people's prefered pronouns

They are after all gender pronouns. If there was such a thing as biological sex pronouns then I would not use them incorrectly personally.

But if you really cannot bear to use the correct gender pronouns for people, using they/them instead might be the thing to do.

Please continue to use people's prefered pronouns

I'll call anyone he or she as they like, as long as they don't call me cis or natal or any of that bollocks?

It has to go both ways.