To think Mumsnet is OBSESSED

[AccidentalKylie]

I used to read Mumsnet because it was a lot of clever, funny women talking about stuff I was interested in, but it's become a one issue forum. It's exhausting.

forallthesaints

Exactly.

We need men to speak out about about this too - because if this whole debacle shows anything it’s that women are not listened to, but men’s opinions are.

I am quite sure that the majority of men share your sensible viewpoint. The problem is that until this affects men too, they won’t speak out about it.

What’s your view on that? What kind of thing do you think might get men (obviously you don’t speak for all men but you know what I mean) more active on this issue? How can we get men to stand up with us and say what you’ve said?

Men, normal decent men, need to understand the fear we can put into women. The chances are, we have acquaintances to indulge in domestic violence. I am absolutely certain we all know friends who have some seriously sexists views.
Until we start calling them out on those views, little will change.

Views can range from 'women can't drive' right through to 'they should stay at home, look after the kids and be ready and waiting in the bedroom' (and some views worse still that don't need airing here).
Some of it's bravado amongst men, some of it's genuinely indicative of attitude.

I'd like to feel attitudes really are changing for the better, but part of me just thinks bad attitudes are being underground, but aren't going away.

@melamin

Thank you for linking to that petition. I have cross-posted it to a lesbian messageboard I am on (sadly these days little used).

brilliant if that transman has a penis then they have had full gender reassignment surgery. If they have a GRC then they use men's changing rooms.
A transwoman who has had the equivalent procedure has committed themself to living and 'being' as much of a woman as they can be will probably also have a GRC -- so they can use female facilities.
It's clear on Mumsnet that most of us are completely accepting of such transwomen -- for example there is no problem about transwomen with GRCs on all-women shortlists and in a changing room situation there would be no penis on show.

It's self ID we are concerned with and the men who may exploit it.

It's self ID we are concerned with and the men who may exploit it.

Yes I totally grasp that, but the two commonly cited issues are 'a transwoman is genetically male' and 'we don't want a penis in the room'
The latter is more complex IF the penis is on a genetic woman, and they elect to use the female rooms.

It's hard to make a law that's going to work for all the genuine people but magically filter out the opportunists.

where does that leave a transman who IS biologically a female but who may have a penis. Which space should they go to?

A born female, fully transitioned penis owner goes in the men’s
A born male penis owner also goes in the men’s.

A born male, fully transitioned, non penis owning person can use the general female facilities.

The issue is not trans people per se. I have no issue with someone who has undergone hormonal and surgical transition in most spaces.

The issue is self ID, that would allow a Male with a fully functioning penis into female spaces.

I just wish more of certain types of threads would be posted in their proper forums instead of AIBU. I find the frequency of some topics that don't seem like they really belong in AIBU, to be annoying.

I've started just clicking on them once so I can hide them but some days I wish there was a feature where I could select multiple ones from the main screen and hide all at once.

brilliant the thing is that it’s not equivalent both ways.

The reason women don’t want men in their spaces is safety - men as a class are not allowed in female spaces because of safety issues - rape and violence etc.

The same is not true for women in men’s spaces. Men have a right to single sex spaces based on dignity, not the violent threat posed by women.

So in this case I don’t think it is illogical to argue that maleness AND penis ownership are reasons why men are not welcome in female spaces.

A vulva is not a physical danger to men. Men have single sex spaces for dignity purposes, not for safety.

What hypermice said.

I think Mumsnet is the most appropriate place for these conversations as we should know the risks better than most.. as Mums.. do we want to take our kids to swimming lessons and they have to change with self-iding TIM? The type who don't want to change their body at all and don't have surgery..

I find that people with a penis usually have an attitude which goes with it. Not all men, but enough to make it an unwanted thing in a female environment. Even the nice men have a sense of ownership over a space and a certain confidence that women don’t have.

We just want to kick back and not worry about our flab and stretch marks. You can’t do that with a man around, no matter how nice he is. We also like to offload about the men in our lives to other women who know where we’re coming from. Men pose a challenge to women and we’re constantly having to manage them in the same way you have to manage a difficult relative or a child.

I really wish there was a dedicated space on mumnet for the topic. I've just posted on site stuff to say so and had a reply from Hebe.

I really wish there was a dedicated space on mumnet for the topic

It’s an issue that affects all women regardless of class, age, ethnicity, colour or creed. I’d say it’s the biggest potential rollback of women’s rights this century.

It deserves to be widely spoken of and it should NOT be tucked away in a dark corner.

So far MNHQ have agreed with this. I hope they continue to do so.

This is a really big deal it’s not a group of bitter harpies being intolerant, it’s a genuine threat to the safety of women - all women.

*ADarkandStormyKnight

I really wish there was a dedicated space on mumnet for the topic

Which topic? The idea that the law should change to Self Identification of Gender?

I might agree with a topic called

What Is A Woman?

That’s what this whole “thing” is about.

MN is about the only open place on the web where women can discuss these issues. It’s not much to ask

Did anybody read my post about twitter censorship?

Discuss away.

When I want to talk about Brexit I go to the EU Referendum area. Brexit is at least as big an issue.

ADarkandStormyKnight

Women are being bullied and silenced on Twitter, too frightened to speak out on Facebook and now you want them stuck in a corner on Mumsnet? No! Absolutely not! Mumsnet is the last safe place for women and you’re welcome to ignore our concerns, but you don’t get to join in the silencing of concerned women.

I just posted on your thread - do you start non-ID-related threads in the feminism section? If not, why? Why should others create threads just for your special area of feminist interest, they're not mind-readers!

What is it you'd like to talk about?

A born female, fully transitioned penis owner goes in the men’s
A born male penis owner also goes in the men’s.

A born male, fully transitioned, non penis owning person can use the general female facilities.

The issue is not trans people per se. I have no issue with someone who has undergone hormonal and surgical transition in most spaces.

The issue is self ID, that would allow a Male with a fully functioning penis into female spaces."

Absolutely agree.

The snag is that the mantra is "Transwomen are women" - being parroted by everyone from Jeremy Corbyn to Maria Miller - and people being suspended from the Labour Party for saying "women don't have dicks".

We are being gaslighted and bullied into accepted women can have penises. That penis can be a female organ. They don't. They aren't.

"The issue is self ID, that would allow a Male with a fully functioning penis into female spaces."

And that is everywhere, from literal "spaces" ie changing rooms/toilets/refuges/prisons etc, to scholarships, jobs, awards, not to mention sport.

Let's not forget the part Self ID would have in skewing data gathering too. I imagine there will be a lot more crimes going in the "committed by women" category.

What about pay-gaps, health and educational outcomes? A person's actual sex has a bearing on these.

This is a far more significant change than it's cheerleaders would have us believe.

More info here:

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Stats can not be collected accurately if some of the people have switched from one side to the other, taking advantages of stats of from one side to boost the stats of the other side and thus making it more difficult for the inequalities to be recorded.

Bump

Stop bumping the thread, SuitedandBooted. The OP doesn’t want the issues being discussed and you’re just drawing attention to it.😉

Very interesting discussion on Any Answers today.

Do you think that if the self ID proposals get dropped, then the level of threads will go down?