Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think Mumsnet is OBSESSED

974 replies

AccidentalKylie · 22/03/2018 20:11

I used to read Mumsnet because it was a lot of clever, funny women talking about stuff I was interested in, but it's become a one issue forum. It's exhausting.

To think Mumsnet is OBSESSED
OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
ShotsFired · 23/03/2018 09:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SirVixofVixHall · 23/03/2018 09:25

And saying it is "transphobic" To exclude transpeople absolutely as partners is creepy and completely wrong. I am heterosexual, I am happily married, but if single I would exclude men as partners who have long nails or wear tie-dye, who don't like dogs or make strange noises when they chew. Men who put their hand on my back when crossing the road, men with damp hands. Men with no sense of humour, men who casually kill insects, men who don't like woodlice, men who are too loud, too quiet, who sulk or explode too quickly. ALL THESE ARE VALID REASONS NOT TO DATE SOMEONE. Frankly having a vagina would be a bit of a deal breaker too. All fine. Saying anything else is RAPE CULTURE.

SirVixofVixHall · 23/03/2018 09:27

Nothing is more reminiscent of the Black and White Minstrels, as male people treating female people as a costume and culture that they can appropriate at will.

maxthemartian · 23/03/2018 09:29

@AccidentalKylie if genital surgery is unethical and impossible for under 18s what is your view of the head of Mermaids taking her child abroad for said surgery at sixteen?

StrangeLookingParasite · 23/03/2018 09:33

They're probably too busy dealing with miserable, hateful TERFs posting pictures of their kids on social media.

Oh that is such an outrageous lie. That tactic is used by TRA's, quite notoriously.

SuitedandBooted · 23/03/2018 09:34

AccidentalKylie

*There's no push for surgery for under 18s. It would be unethical but also - in terms of their development - impossible.

And genital surgery is irreversible.

This surgeon does not exist*

Oh really? Hmm. A little light reading for you and others....

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2017/01/transgender-kids-why-doctors-are-right-be-cautious-about-childhood

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gender-reversal-surgery-demand-rise-assignment-men-women-trans-a7980416.html

www.crowdjustice.com/case/free-speech-matters-round2/

StayPositiveOk · 23/03/2018 09:36

Getting boring now isn't it?

JAPAB · 23/03/2018 09:36

So why is it ok for gay men to say they never want to have sex with a woman? Or for straight men to say they don’t want to have sex with a man?

I think everyone agrees that it is OK to not want to date people outside of your orientation. Because there are just "natural barriers" stopping you from being attracted to such people.

If there are no "natural barriers" then it is perfectly possible to exclude people from your dating pool on the grounds of prejudice. Like a person who decides they will never data an Italian person, say. It is possible for that person to be prejudiced against Italian people.

Some people believe that if say you are a heterosexual man then you are naturally capable of being attracted to trans women just as you are cis women, but not naturally capable of being attracted to other men. Hence the former is prejudice, the latter gets a pass.

The thing is, if you accept as a premise that there is only one type of heterosexuality, attraction to either men or women (whether they be cis or trans), then it would all make sense.

But a lot of people are probably just attracted to one reproductive type of human and that's it.

To quote one guy's response to Riley JD's video on how rejecting trans people as potential partners is discriminatory, "I don't decide what erects my dick".

Arealhumanbeing · 23/03/2018 09:40

Signed a while ago and shared with friends.

Nothing to add really. I tend to freeze on this matter when I try to debate it. Something about the gaslighting, vicious style of the language/arguments from the other side just take my words away.

Thanks to others on here who have argued so incredibly well.

PositivelyPERF · 23/03/2018 09:40

There are no such things as cis women, JAPAB. We are women.

PussyTrumpHat · 23/03/2018 09:42

Trans women are male so a heterosexual man is not likely to be attracted to a male

NFATR · 23/03/2018 09:44

I think everyone agrees that it is OK to not want to date people outside of your orientation. Because there are just "natural barriers" stopping you from being attracted to such people

They don't agree though, that's the point. They are insisting that people who are outside an orientation are not, because they are insisting that men are in fact women. They are saying that the natural barriers that stop lesbians being attracted to men do not exist because the men are women now.

It's as illogical as it is offensive.

Terfragette69 · 23/03/2018 09:45

lilymaynard.wordpress.com/2018/03/20/transwomen-are-men/

A poignant article by Lily Maynard.

TerfsUp · 23/03/2018 09:50

Great article by Lily Maynard. I expect the TRA brigade will soon show up to trash the blog post.

CharlieParley · 23/03/2018 09:54

@AccidentalKylie

Maybe other people find it expedient to lie about these things. I do not. Denying what is documented in the research literature - that there are transgender patients who regret genital surgery - also serves no purpose whatsoever. Detransitioning is not transphobic. Acknowledging and discussing detransitioners is not transphobic.

I will not name this particular surgeon as he has a right to his privacy, but your claims that this never happens and that reversing the surgery is impossible are profoundly untrue.

Let me remind you of James Caspian, a therapist and at one time head of a transgender organisation who was motivated to study detransitioners because he was told about patients seeking reversal of the genital surgery by Professor Misoslav Djordevic in Serbia. Here's a quote from an article in the Independent about it:

It's potentially why some of those seeking “reversal” surgeries are heading to a clinic in Serbia, where Professor Misoslav Djordjevic has been performing them for five years at the Belgrade Center for Genital Reconstructive Surgery.

A specialist in genital reconstruction with 20 years of experience, Prof Djordjevic began conducting the innovative procedures after a transgender patient who had undergone surgery to remove male genitalia requested a reversal.

It's by no means a common practice. He has performed just 14 surgeries to date and is currently in the process of treating two “reversal” patients, reports The Daily Telegraph, explaining that the procedure is extremely complex and can cost up to €18,000 (£15,965).

[...]

So far, Djordjevic has exclusively treated transgender females who have asked to recreate their male genitalia.

Known as phalloplasty, the procedure entails the construction of a penis from skin taken from the groin, abdomen or thigh. Though the surgery produces aesthetic results, many mistakenly assume that it will ultimately render one’s genitalia physically futile.

Of course Mr Caspian was prevented from carrying out a study that met all scientific and medical criteria (his proposal was passed by his own department) because it was feared that finding out why people detransition may be offensive to some people.

This opposition to scientific research and the rejection of science is motivated entirely by the fear that its results may threaten one's core beliefs or world view. And while these feelings are nothing new, when it comes to evidence based policy making they are irrelevant.

FYI Here's also a study from Sweden showing that 2.2% of those who had genital surgery regretted their decision and sought to reverse it.

And I urge you to refrain from becoming abusive. I will not call you names and being called a liar and a miserable hateful TERF is once again confirmation that people who cannot refute one's arguments must resort to ad hominems in their efforts to stop this debate.

Well, it's not going to work. I have a transkid in the family and being well informed on this issue is too important for me to stop educating myself or anyone who wants to make the right decisions. They will affect this child for life after all.

And so far, insults like yours have merely served to help me realise that I must fight for my rights. And that's all they do - motivate me to keep going. I accept that you hold a different view and disagree with me on this and I understand you may come at this from a completely different perspective, experience and background.

But it's unnecessary and unpleasant to hurl insults, so keep a civil tongue, please. We are all adults here and can have a debate without resorting to verbal abuse.

noeffingidea · 23/03/2018 10:01

I always thought that 'straight' men who date transwomen are bisexual, or at least those transwomen who still retain their male genitals.
Personally I have no problem accepting the social and legal staus of transpeople who have gone through the surgery and got their GRC but I can't imagine ever being sexually attracted to a transman. Or a man who presents as a woman whether they retain their male body or not. I don't think most people can over ride biological attraction.

MyLittleVespa · 23/03/2018 10:04

Terfragette69 Lily speaks the truth.

AccidentalKylie · 23/03/2018 10:09

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

NFATR · 23/03/2018 10:14

bigotry disguised as rationality and a reliance on anomalies and made up anecdotes. TERFs use exactly the same tactics as the alt-right

So you don't care about rationality? Or biology? Or anyones actual lived experience?

You're the facist here. You're the alt-right. You're the one trampling all over womens rights with your lies and your facist insistence that black is white.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 23/03/2018 10:14

That Lily Maynard article...
How can anyone read that and not see what a smoke and mirrors game it all is? And yet they bleat on with their "what's the harm, you bigoted bunch of bastards" on every thread...

Whizbang · 23/03/2018 10:14

Why can’t we talk about it OP? Why are you trying to shut down our debate? If you don’t like the threads don’t read them, but stop trying to control what I can read or say.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 23/03/2018 10:16

That's the 64 million dollar question, Whiz. If I were more cynical I'd almost suspect an agenda.

Terfragette69 · 23/03/2018 10:16

AccidentalKylie

Oh dear, I see logic is not our friend today. If you think that the 'erasure of women' by some transwomen is justifiable then you go on and keep that head of yours buried in the sand, and we'll go on defending the rights and lives of women. You've chosen your side, you are a traitor to women.

AccidentalKylie · 23/03/2018 10:18

Why can’t we talk about it OP? Why are you trying to shut down our debate? If you don’t like the threads don’t read them, but stop trying to control what I can read or say.

I'm... not? I was pointing out that you're all fucking obsessed. The 'FACTS FACTS FACTS!!' that all you GCSE Science grads love.

Anyway. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Enjoy peddling strawman arguments and made up gubbins about a minority of people.

See you in the history books!

OP posts:
CharlieParley · 23/03/2018 10:18

AccidentalKylie thank you for demonstrating to even more women why we must discuss this issue. I was a lurker for a decade and posts like yours prompted me to become active on this issue.