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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

263 replies

sleepyjane · 22/03/2018 11:03

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

OP posts:

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:22

SuburbanRhonda Because sometimes I'm talking about cis women specifically and sometimes I'm talking about trans women specifically. For example, I might want to say 'all women face discrimination on the basis of gender but trans women may face specific forms of discrimination which cis women do not face, and vice versa'

See? Useful descriptor!

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 16:23

SuburbanRhonda I do use the word woman to refer to both.

You've just called a load of people on here cis women though. It's like a whole new category of women.
Do you tell biological men they are cis men? Try it in RL and outside of your bubble and I bet a lot of blokes would be WTF?! too.

iBiscuit · 22/03/2018 16:24

My feelings aren't hurt by being called cis.

It offends me, and angers me, because it conflates gender and sex, social constructs and biology, and in doing so reinforces the absurd and damaging stereotypes we've been kicking against for years.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:24

@RedToothBrush because you're the one who said that gender is a belief which requires belief in the soul and is therefore akin to a religious belief being forced on another person, and I was the one making the point that you can believe gender is an innate characteristic which has nothing to do with souls or religious beliefs.

The comment about full weight of medical opinions is, I assume, directed at someone else since I didn't say that.

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 16:28

See? Useful descriptor!

Really trying not to say "are you on glue?!" You've just SAID women and trans women.
All good.Then flung in a random cis word as well. You perfectly proved why cis isn't needed - you just did a perfectly good sentence without it!
Why another one with the word cis? It's totally, utterly, meaningless!
Cis meaning biological in your little example. So say biological then. Why can't you say biological women? That's not offensive. Are we erasing biology?

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:29

@CadyHeron I do use it of men as well, yes. I'm sure many men would be confused by it but that isn't really relevant - people are confused by gay men too but I don't pretend they don't exist as a result.

I haven't specially referred to you as cis. But I do use it to talk in general terms. I am sorry if this is still offensive but I have to strike a balance between your feelings and mine and this seems a fair compromise. I'm recognising your preference for the term 'woman' and will happily use it in reference to you specifically. But I don't think you have the right to insist I never use a descriptor which I find useful and in fact essential at times.

@iBiscuit see above, I think it responds to your post too.

SuburbanRhonda · 22/03/2018 16:30

For example, I might want to say 'all women face discrimination on the basis of gender but trans women may face specific forms of discrimination which cis women do not face, and vice versa'

Women face discrimination on the basis of their biological sex, not their gender. So no, not a useful descriptor.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:30

@CadyHeron interesting - why don't you mind biological? Isn't that just another way of doing the exact same thing?

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 16:31

ihate, I think its a belief, you think its innate.

I think my argument about it being a belief not innate stands. You are now just trying to avoid the point itself by missing my point entirely by not challenging my argument about why I think its a belief rather than innate. You are just repeating that you still believe its innate.

Without a shred of irony or awareness.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:33

SuburbanRhonda I completely disagree - in my experience and based on a huge amount of reading I've done on this, oppression is gender based not sex based.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:35

@RedToothBrush Apologies but you'll have to make your point more clearly, I really don't understand what you're trying to convey.

MsMcWoodle · 22/03/2018 16:35

I hate people are having to use the word 'biological because people like you are trying to change the meaning of the word 'woman' .
A woman is an adult human female. It's you who is confusing the issue.
Don't call me CIS.

MsMcWoodle · 22/03/2018 16:37

i hate I understood redtoothbrush. Don't know why you can't.

fascinated · 22/03/2018 16:39

Well, based on my personal experience, oppression is sex based. I don’t think my sexual assault by a stranger on a dark street was anything to do with my innate feelings about gender. Given that I’d never met him I don’t think he would have much knowledge of my gender identity. I rather think it was to do with the attacker’s observation of my sex. And as for my pregnancy, well....

Milliepede · 22/03/2018 16:39

Perhaps your daughter could call them "Cuntybollocks" and that covers both sides. I.Am.Sick.Of.This.Trans. Shit

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:39

@MsMcWoodle as I've said several times I won't call you cis if you don't like the term, but I will continue to use it when speaking in general terms because it's a useful descriptor.

By all means, explain redtoothbrush's point to me as I'm willing to respond but truly didn't understand. I'm not being obnoxious, I just need clarification.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 16:46

but I have to strike a balance between your feelings and mine and this seems a fair compromise

It seems a little like piling on to keep addressing your points Ihate so apologies for this as it doesn't directly apply to something you have said. It occurred to me that what you have said above could apply to using the preferred pronouns of someone who changes gender from day to day. I can accept gender dysphoria and I can accept that someone living as the opposite gender wishes to use the pronouns appropriate to how they live their lives even though I personally think gender is a social construct. But when a person is changing from day to day it has nothing whatsoever to do with distress about being born as male or female. That is my belief. I would be dubious about having to capitulate to chopping and changing pronouns because I genuinely don't believe that person is suffering acute distress with regards to being born (what they perceive to be) the wrong sex. It seems like buggering about to me and involving others in a game or fantasy. It is at that point I would have to strike a balance between someone else's feelings and mine and refuse to worry about a daily pronoun change and all the attendant anxiety about getting it wrong. In all I have read about dysphoria or mental anxiety of trans individuals I have yet to come across anything convincing which says a person altering from day to day (Pippa Bunce I am looking at you) is suffering in any way at all. In fact it seems a bit of a power trip I wouldn't want to be part of. As far as I can see a person doing that is simply a gender non conforming person - much like most of us!

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:49

If oppression of women was sex based, why are men who behave in effeminate ways discriminated against? Surely if it's just about your biology, men could never face oppression on the basis of sex because they don't have female biology? But we know that men can face ridicule, discrimination and actual violence on the basis of them being seen as somehow 'like women'. This is because it is the gender female that is devalued - not just female biology.

fascinated · 22/03/2018 16:49

MissPiggy has it!

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:52

@MissPiggysKarateChop I actually agree in that I don't think someone who changes pronouns daily is trans - trans men and women don't regularly change their gender identity, but rather have a single gender identity which doesn't correspond with their biological sex.

Someone whose gender identity changes regularly might be gender fluid or simply playing with gender performatity. I'd personally choose to accept their preferred pronouns at any given time, but I accept that this is a more nuanced situation. But I think it's a separate question to the trans debate.

SuburbanRhonda · 22/03/2018 16:53

SuburbanRhonda I completely disagree - in my experience and based on a huge amount of reading I've done on this, oppression is gender based not sex based.

Well, you wouldn’t say that, wouldn’t you

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 16:53

oppression is gender based not sex based.

Tell that to women suffering period poverty and FGM or forced to have babies through lack of abortion care, or women who are isolated from communities while menstruating and who are in danger of rape while in isolation, women in this country not receiving adequate postnatal care and countless other abuses based on biology- I'm sure they will be relieved.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 16:55

But I think it's a separate question to the trans debate.

I agree, it is.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 16:56

I said that to be innate, gender non-conformity has to appear throughout history and throughout every culture as a separate thing to roles based on sex.

My argument is that where there are references to non-conformity, in other cultures and in history they are politically led or led by social structure. They are not 'innate' because of their distribution and what class/social standing those people were. Its not evenly spread through all sexes, societies and social classes.

Homosexuality on the other hand... plenty of references to that.

Otherwise gender is just a modern day belief and a distinctly western one at that.

You can not define women or men without this social framework if you do not refer to biology.

In replying that you 'believe its innate', you are actually saying that your believe its innate, without actually explaining why me saying its just a belief is flawed.

Can you see why I'm going crosseyed here. You are in essence saying its not a believe, because you believe so.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 16:57

@MissPiggysKarateChop but the reason these things occur is because women aren't seen as important as men and their healthcare and wellbeing and physical needs are either disregarded or actively harmed. There's nothing intrinsic about female biology that means these awful things happen.

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