To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

[sleepyjane]

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

Welcome to the brave new world, hopefully the school would see the nonsense for what it is but don't bet on it.

YANBU

X-post, but I think it still makes sense.

A lot of trans campaigners are horrendously retrogressive. A boy with long hair, hates football? In our day he may or may not have grown to become a gay man. Now, he'd be funnelled by particular groups (who have access to schools and run their own youth groups) towards IDing as a girl. Likewise the tomboy towards IDing as a boy.

Question these groups and you're a transphobe

@iBiscuit that would be terrible. No child should be pressured into anything regarding gender or sexuality. The same is true of ALL children however - including intersex children assigned a gender at birth and made to live as either male or female without regard to their own views, and trans children forced to live as their birth sex when they know their gender. I personally think that young children shouldn't be permitted to take hormones or suppressants or undergo surgery until they are considered Gillick competent (a legal test which determines whether an individual child has the ability to make decisions for themselves, usually in respect of healthcare. It takes into consideration the severity of the consequences of the decision and the child's own intellectual and emotional maturity).

@Ihatemyclients Actually when I say I would like to see issues of sexuality being a more private thing I do include the kind of things you mention. I hate it when people try to say that little kids are "boyfriend and girlfriend" or "flirting". I nearly had very strong words with my mother-in-law over remarks she made about my children as toddlers along those lines - only because she is overseas so sees them intermittently, the topic did not get repeated at the point when I had had enough.

The sexualisation of clothing - by this I mean inappropriately adult styles for children, and inappropriate slogans - is another of my bugbears.

Yep, the world has gone crazy and no doubt she'll look back in 15 years when she's married to some bloke and has two children and cringe at her ridiculousness.

I've not given it much thought, but I'm not sure Gillick competence is enough, or that it's appropriately measured always. Children are being referred to gender clinics at obscenely young ages.

There's a lot of 'hysteria' about this, but it's well founded.

@ dancinfeet

"What I can't work out is, if they can't make their mind up about whether they are a boy or a girl, why not just choose themselves a name that is unisex? Such as Sam, or Alex. Or pick a name and stick with it. Anything else (such as changing name each time they change their bloody underwear) is just attention seeking. Nothing against it, just hate all the 'look at meeeeee' attention crap. If you want to change sex, get on with it. Why turn it into a 3 act drama with the rest of the class as their supporting cast?!"

This.

@QuiteLikely5

"Just call her thingy mbob

Surely this isn’t offensive"

Well, that actually depends on whether the person concerned wishes to make a fuss (and it looks to me as if in this case they most certainly do.) It could be argued (devil's advocate here) that if you call every other child in the class by their given name and the trans one "thingy mbob", then you are discriminating against them.

Yes, OP, the world has gone stark raving bonkers.

juvenile attention seeking, exactly. Pick one name and stick to it, because you don't make work for others.

who she wants to have sex with when the time comes is of no interest to anyone else so don't bore on about it. And adults should not use words such as 'flirt' 'handsome' 'beautiful' especially about kids.

I struggle with this a bit. Not because she wishes to identify as male on some days and female on others. Rather it is the fact the she feels she needs to make a choice at all. Certain elements of society seem very keen on labelling things, feelings, beliefs, habits as "male" things or "female" things. I think that is damaging, a girl who likes climbing trees and wants to be a fighter pilot isn't indicating she wants to be a man unless you think only men can climb trees or fly fast jets.
I bloody hate gender stereotypes.

This is about power in this case.

If you pander to it, then it has a detrimental effect on other children. This type of behaviour is abusive and the school are facilitating that.

If you have this identity, then misgendering WILL be a natural part of it, because people are human. The school should only intervene if its malicious and done to bully the child. That doesn't mean the child should be allowed to shout 'transphobic' every five minutes as that's manipulating the situation. This child also needs to learn tolerance and they are not the centre of the universe.

This is clearly a troubled child and should be treated accordingly. But its that child's issue, not the issue of every other child to deal with (and might not be equipped to deal with).

I would tell your god daughter exactly that - its about power and anyone being 'transphobic' isn't and to avoid this individual as much as possible. Not because they are trans, but because their behaviour is harmful.

You shouldn't get a free pass to be a bully. You should be gender neutral on behaviour. A arse is still an arse whether they wear a skirt or trousers.

Indeed SquirrelsareUs

And we have people claiming that using the wrong pronouns is "literal violence"

They're all over the internet, all over the social media that kids like this 12yo access, accusing doubters of being TERFs.

Not sure they've come up with an acronym yet to dismiss the gay men who are similarly worried.

The best advice you can give is just to tell your dgd to avoid this girl, and avoid speaking about her in any way to anyone else. Just act like she does not exist. If the whole class ends up ignoring her she will adjust her behaviour pretty damn quick.

A baby boy looks at a baby girl for more than 3 seconds and is called a flirt. Five year old girls have 'boyfriends' and it's a cute thing kids do. No one is up in arms when an 8 year old girl says she's going to marry a prince one day. Eleven year old girls kiss posters of their favourite boy band members.
Actually I have huge problems with most of this as it is sexualising children and their actions. No one called my children (in my hearing) "flirts" and they didn't have boyfriends or girlfriends at 5. And one of my DD famously was going to "marry a penguin" - there was nothing sexual about this statement (just as there isn't in the far more common "I'm going to marry Daddy" or "I'm going to marry Mummy").

Personally I believe (like Matthew Parris) that most people are to some extent Bi, but it is a spectrum.

This girl sounds confused, and I wonder if she is on the Autistic spectrum, as there is research that shows that people on the spectrum mature sexually later and can spend a lot of time confused about their identity and sexuality.

@iBiscuit being referred to a gender clinic isn't the same as being pressured into undergoing surgery.

If gillick competence is a sufficient test to allow children the right to refuse life-saving medical treatment (and it is) then it ought to be sufficient to allow children the right to transition. No court would consider the twelve year old is this example gillick-competent. That doesn't mean no child is.

We have to centre children at the heart of this debate. We know that forcing trans children to live as their birth gender can have devastating consequences, including long term mental health problems and suicide. That is a sign that we don't currently have it right. And the alternative isn't forcing any child who expresses the slightest hint of gender non-conformity to immediately take hormones and undergo surgery. It's to constantly make and re-evaluate decisions based on their experience, maturity, competence, resolution and wishes. It isn't impossible for this to be a nuanced, careful, ongoing balancing process.

I also think it very likely that if we were a lot more accepting of transgenderism generally and allowed self-ID, there would be less pressure on people to transition and individuals who perhaps aren't totally certain could work out their own identities without being told that they aren't really trans unless they undergo life changing surgery and take hormones. If we could all acknowledge that sex and gender don't corresponds and aren't always straightforward, it might take the pressure off of those who are struggling to make sense of themselves. (This is obviously not all trans people - many know for certain from a young age and that is also valid).

I can't believe that's tolerated in a working environment, BlackRibboner?! Someone making people address him as different names depending on how he feels? Why does how he feels have to be factored into the working day?
Maybe we should have compulsory flowers for those feeling sad, anybody feeling happy should be forced to spread the joy by being the ones to buy the flowers, fluffy kittens dispensed to those feeling tense, etc, etc,
If how you feel makes no difference to how you function in your role you shouldn't be allowed to waste people's time attention seeking with it.

'This child also needs to learn tolerance and they are not the centre of the universe. '

Absolutely. Believing that you are the centre of the universe is entirely normal at this age, but its important that adults hold on to reality for this child. The reality is that this child is a girl, and her name is X. Those things are not going to change. She doesn't get to change those things - no-one does. Maybe she is a lesbian - she will figure that out in her own time. I hope that her school are being sane and sensible in their response, and not expecting adults to go along with indulging a child's entirely normal experimentation.

ihate, I'm all in favour of children and young people being encouraged to listen to their feelings in terms of how they dress (outside of school), what their interests are etc. There are many different ways to be a boy, or to be a girl. However, their birth sex is a biological fact, and will not change.

I know, but combined with what is basically a transcult in online and rl communities, there's a very real danger that children feel pressured into it.

I have huge issues with self-ID though, mainly related to many vulnerable people needing single sex facilities, medical care etc. The rights of transwomen or those claiming to be transwomen should not trample all over the rights of everyone else.

'Why does how he feels have to be factored into the working day?'

Exactly! I'm feeling pretty crap today, tired and a bit tearful. I'm keeping it to myself and getting on with work as best I can. I'm not expecting everyone else to join me in a big boo-hoo.

I think its outrageous that this guy's demands are being pandered to in a working environment

Ihatemyclients

I think this is part of the self ID debate, better to have the debate and make the results of the debate the basis of ID processes and equality law. There is no debate currently.

This politician in Ireland has now proposed a law that makes conversion therapy illegal. What does this mean in practice for kids?

twitter.com/fintanwarfield/status/973883960349650945

What iBiscuit and Chad said is how I feel too.

It seems that some parents prefer to believe that their child is the wrong gender than accept that they are gay or lesbian.

There is a strong and vociferous minority who are pushing certain agendas. It makes me very sad that some people will have had drugs that make them infertile at an age when they can't possibly understand that their feelings might be very different in 10 years time.

@iBiscuit how is that different to trans children being pressured into living as their birth sex? I've seen little evidence of online 'trans cults' but plenty of evidence of huge pressure put on children to conform even when they are very clear about their own selves.

@Lottapianos the point I'm making is that sex and gender aren't the same thing and don't always correspond. You aren't wrong that biological sex is a fact; it's just that it's not really relevant to this debate.

And DH has a colleague who sometimes presents as a woman, other times as a man (with two wholly different names - they have one work account linked to two log ins so they can use the appropriate one on any given day).

That is just madness. It really is. If I were part of the HR team, your DH's colleague would be an issue that would keep me up at night.

I'd encourage your dgd to leave that girl to it and not have any interaction with her at all.

I don't blame the girl in question, though it's an absolute heap of bullshit that shouldn't be accepted. Among much on online (and offline, but mainly online) youth culture, being trans is a high-status position.

I'm not suprised these stories are becoming more and more common. If I was a twelve year old girl today and was faced - even unconsciously - with a choice of being a girl (at the bottom of the status ladder, a target for sexual harrassment, too much of my value placed on whether I was pretty enough, flirty enough, obedient enough, and uncomfortable with my own body as many pubertal girls are) or with being a trans child (high-status, untouchable, special, my bodily discomfort validated and my wishes obeyed) of course I'd bloody choose to be trans. It's a miracle that every girl in the country hasn't yet chosen to identify as trans, either as a conscious act or as a perfectly reasonable, understandable subconscious impulse.

I would not be a teenage girl again for anything, in the current climate.

how is that different to trans children being pressured into living as their birth sex?

Ihatemyclients I don't believe there is such a thing as a "trans child". There's plenty of gender nonconforming children, who should be supported to live and present however they want, but I don't believe any of them are trans. If they identify as trans when they are older, that's up to them, but it isn't a child thing at all.

I know several women who are lesbians, and I think most/all of them were at least 20 when they came out. Two were in their 30s.

Meanwhile, all the giggling girls in my year who insisted that they were "bisexual" when they were teenagers back in the 1990s (especially when any boys were listening to them), are now married to men and have a couple of kids with them.

It's all attention-seeking bollocks, and girls in particular cannot say with any certainty what their sexual orientation is at such a young age.