To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

[sleepyjane]

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

I'm not alone in finding the term "cis" offensive. It was designed to be.

I agree iBiscuit - I find cis offensive and if I am to respect pronouns I expect people to respect my dislike of being labelled as cis.

SuburbanRhonda then great. Let's be kind to people who are sad. That had nothing to do with talking to kids about what it means to be trans, however.

I’m pretty sure it’ll work for us in our school, and will have the additional benefit of avoiding using gender stereotypes.

And a request - I’m on this thread, responding to your posts, so I don’t need the extra reminder by email. If you could leave out the @ that would be helpful

But in situations where I'm specifically talking about cis women or trans women, I will use those descriptors for clarity.

woman or trans woman is perfectly clear. Cis is unnecessary.

@iBiscuit it is no more offensive than the term trans. It's a descriptor (like gay / straight / trans / black / white etc).

Claiming the term is offensive is just a disingenuous way of denying the identity of transwomen by ensuring that they're never allowed to be viewed as women.

SuburbanRhonda It may avoid gender stereotypes but it doesn't help children in any way to understand what it means to be trans, and if it's accompanied by the assertion that trans = gender dysphoria, it's actively harmful

Ihate
I do not identify with the term cis. It is not a descriptor I have chosen, it is one that somebody else is trying to impose in me without my consent.

@whoputthecatout I find it useful because the word 'woman' includes transwomen and is therefore not specific.

it is no more offensive than the term trans.

To you, perhaps. To many women, it is. And if you insist on using it anyway because not everyone agrees with you that transwomen are women, it is disrespectful to women.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude so presumably then if a transwoman wants to be called a woman without 'trans' prefixing it you'll respect that and won't impose any terms on her that she hasn't consented to.

My view is that gender is irrelevant as it is a social construct therefore the terms male /man and female /woman refer to biological sex.

SuburbanRhonda I won't use it to describe a woman who has specifically told me not to because I wouldn't want to upset her, but I will continue to use it when talking about cis women generally because it is a useful descriptor.

SuburbanRhonda It may avoid gender stereotypes but it doesn't help children in any way to understand what it means to be trans, and if it's accompanied by the assertion that trans = gender dysphoria, it's actively harmful

Well, we’ll have to disagree on that. If the only way to explain being trans is to resort to gender stereotypes, we’ll be sticking with the Transgendertrend resource.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude a belief you're entitled to hold but not enforce on others who don't hold the same belief as you.

Claiming the term is offensive is just a disingenuous way of denying the identity of transwomen by ensuring that they're never allowed to be viewed as women.

No it isn't disingenuous at all. I absolutely find the term offensive because it declares me to be some kind of sub-set of women - I am not. You have argued for respect with pronouns etc. and to some extent I agree with you. I am inclined to be polite and disrespectful. However, you are now telling me my dislike of being called 'cis' isn't at all sincere and is in fact somehow transphobic - so my genuine opinion is dismissed. Isn't that the same as ignoring desired pronouns? You are dismissing my right to be labelled how I wish and I prefer being called woman. I loathe the term cis.

*@CadyHeron I'm not relabelling you. I'm not saying you can't use the term woman. I would still call you a woman. But in situations where I'm specifically talking about cis women or trans women, I will use those descriptors for clarity. *

There's already a perfectly good name for women.WOMEN. You can get clarity by saying woman and transwoman.
Why won't you do that?
Cis is a completely and totally unneeded word.

SuburbanRhonda Do you really think it's a choice between gender stereotypes and insisting that it's a mental illness? Your own PHSE leader has acknowledged that this transgendertrend definition is contrary to the equality act and not fit for purpose. Surely there's a third way?

I don't think saying that gender is an innate characteristic requires reliance on stereotypes - help me understand why you think it does?

What really gets me is that women are expected to show courtesy and respect to trans women by using their chosen pronouns, referring to them as women, going through hoops to make sure they are never uncomfortable etc. yet trans women do not show the same respect to women when they inflict on us or (talk or write about us) using this meaningless, borrowed from chemistry, term 'cis'.

If trans women are going to go round demanding we using their pronouns, bend over backwards to indulge their identity they should at least desist from using the term cis about women who find it objectionable and offensive.

Double standards or what?

Well said misspiggy. Seems like you're free to be called what you like, unless you're a woman.
Can't cause offence to anyone else, but screw what women think or feel about what they're being called.

It actually doesn’t make sense to use the word cis though.

If you believe transwomen are women, surely you would use the word women for both? What clarity does using the word cis provide?

@MissPiggysKarateChop I won't ever refer to an individual as cis if they have said they don't like the term. But I'll continue to use it when speaking in general terms about cos women generally because it's a useful descriptor and, as a cis woman myself, it's a term I'm entitled to use.

@CadyHeron I agree, woman is a great word and I use it all the time. But it includes cis and trans women. So it's a perfectly good word when I'm talking about all women, but not if I am specifically referring to cis women or to trans women.

SuburbanRhonda I do use the word woman to refer to both. I just use cis and trans when I'm talking about either cis women or trans women. Different words for different types of women, that's all.

If they’re all women, why use cis or trans?

If you believe transwomen are women, surely you would use the word women for both?

Actually think it's because there's one glaringly bloody obvious reason why - biology. They need to create a whole new (meaningless) word because of the fact ones who aren't biological women and are still complete,intact,no intent of sex changing, are in fact MEN.

@RedToothBrush I didn't say gender was an innate belief, I said it was an innate characteristic

And the difference in the context of my point is...?

As the bullshit about the 'full weight of the medical profession' shit.

As for this crap 'Not when it has the full weight of the medical profession behind it'...

It was obviously my imagination that someone from the Tavistock has openly come out publicly and said recently 'Hey I think we need to step back and look at this, this doesn't seem to be a normal pattern of diagnosis and there maybe something else going on here'.

And how can it be true given the sheer absence of the research in this area?

I am always concerned when people say there is only one way to do things in medicine.

There is never a 'right' way to do something in medicine. Only the best thing to do for a patient on an individual case by case situation. There are evidence based approved ways of doing things, but these are rarely singular in nature. There are usually a few options, where the best fit is recommended (noting that there are situations where a patient can opt for an alternative approach given their personal circumstances). There are preferred pathways and guidelines which are suggested by institutions but doctors are not always obliged to follow. There are best practice recommendations which are designed to protect BOTH patients and practitioners. But again there are occasions where upon careful examination of the situation and advice from others, these might not be fully complied with.

As previous posters have stated, many are too afraid to challenge the trans juggernaut of ideology. The doctor at the Tavistock has risked her career in saying what she has. Doctors elsewhere have lost their jobs. And that's a very fucking scary thing.

It is not lost on me, that not one person, responded to my point up thread on ideology and medicine.

Why? Because they don't want to think about how trans ideology is a cancer to the independence of medicine to be evidence based rather than political driven and what that actually means for medicine as a whole.