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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

263 replies

sleepyjane · 22/03/2018 11:03

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

OP posts:
DN4GeekinDerby · 22/03/2018 17:01

I agree that some have been harsh to the child for things children do and the question about whether the school will support her threat has kinda disappeared. I'm not sure what the school will do - when I tried out different names as a kid, the teachers would usually use it though it wasn't on any official registers and they didn't do anything about what the other kids did. It sounds to me like a child using her classmates and classroom to try to figure out things which should would be better with other space to work on, both for her and her peers. Sadly, it's pretty rare to have that which I think makes the difficulties of growing up. I mean, at that age, the school I was in (in the US) had weekly group therapy for kids struggling with things like gender or issues at home, which was amazing for me and I think more kids would benefit from that, but the lack of funding and well-being just isn't enough of a priority with all the rest schools have to do.

I'm confused how some of these terms bring clarity or are useful. Stonewall defines trans as "an umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth. Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) Transgender, Transsexual, Gender-queer (GQ), Gender-fluid, Non-binary, Gender-variant, Crossdresser, Genderless, Agender, Nongender, Third gender, Two-spirit, Bi-gender, Trans man, Trans woman,Trans masculine, Trans feminine and Neutrois." and cis as "someone whose gender identity is the same as the sex they were assigned at birth. Non-trans is also used by some people." I mean, we can use whatever words we want - freedom of expression is still a thing - I just don't get how calling a dysphoric people who doesn't identify as anything under the trans umbrella as cis makes things any clearer for anyone.

Their definition of gender dysphoria is "used to describe when a person experiences discomfort or distress because there is a mismatch between their sex assigned at birth and their gender identity. This is also the clinical diagnosis for someone who doesn’t feel comfortable with the gender they were assigned at birth." which looks a lot like their definition of trans. How is saying trans people are dysphoric 'actively harmful'? Why do we want to say that getting distressed by our sex is mentally healthy?

Also, their definition of gender is "often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth." which is pretty close to the medical one given by the WHO which is "refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women". Neither of which say anything about innate characteristics, in fact they say just the opposite - they are socially and culturally applied to people. I really don't get where the 'full weight' comes from when both the medical and LGBTQ+ defines gender as not being innate.

Also, intersex activists are generally strongly for ensuring all children are defined as female or male at birth both for the importance culturally and it's requirement in medical treatment as many of the treatments for most DSDs are reliant on the person's sex. Intersex Society of North America, which is one the largest, has a lot written on how the idea of delaying for intersex kids causes more problems than it solves particularly now we know that intersex people are no more likely to be dysphoric than anyone else and we can stop unneeded surgical treatments and still recognize who is female and male.

I can get the idea that sex and gender can both be axis of oppression, though I - and others I've read - view gender as a socially applied to enforce sexism which is why feminine boys and men like my son face a lot of crap to keep the system going, but the idea that female people are not oppressed for our sex is just...what in the universe are you reading that you think baby girls being abused and murdered has anything nothing to do with their bodies, their sex? What in what you read explains why there are so many sites now where males of all identities openly discuss wanting to rape trans men? I mean, there has just been another story of a 3 month old girl whose father broke her ribs in 28 places and has left her lifelong brain damage because he thought that was an appropriate way to express that he wanted a son and a not a daughter not far from where I grew up an abused, unwanted female child often hearing horrible stories of the results of people being unhappy at the birth of a girl. Seriously, just what have you read that erases our bodies - which surely should get just as much consideration as our innate whatever and the target of that oppression, it is our bodies that are targetted and not our gender - when it comes to why girls and women around the world are violated? That's just so insulting on so many levels. It's women with female bodies that are seen as unimportant, not our innate essence or more masculine women wouldn't get the shit we do to keep us in place either.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 17:06

@RedToothBrush thank you, that makes much more sense.

However you're wrong to say there are no historical examples of transgender people. There are many - followers of the Ancient Greek cult of Cybele, who castrated themselves, lived as women and demanded to be recognised as such; Native American tribes who had roles for men who passed as women and vice versa, roman emperor Elagabalus in 220 AD who lived as a woman and sought a surgeon who could make their body female, chevalier d'eon in the 1700s who lived as a woman and demanded to be recognised as female. These are just a small number of the many, many examples that show that for as long as there have been modern humans there have been those whose gender does not correspond with their sex.

fascinated · 22/03/2018 17:07

I have no doubt that Trans women/girls face difficulties in life. But they are nothing to do with those that females face. It is not because they are female. It is because they are males that other males do not approve of.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 17:09

@DN4GeekinDerby women's bodies are abused because they belong to women - not the other way round. That's the point I'm making.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 17:10

@MissPiggysKarateChop but the reason these things occur is because women aren't seen as important as men and their healthcare and wellbeing and physical needs are either disregarded or actively harmed. There's nothing intrinsic about female biology that means these awful things happen.

No. Those things happen to them because they are biologically female not because of their gender. Gender being the cultural and societal stereotypes imposed on people as a result of their biological sex. We may have to agree to disagree on this one, I'm pretty firm in this belief.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 17:11

I have no doubt that Trans women/girls face difficulties in life. But they are nothing to do with those that females face. It is not because they are female. It is because they are males that other males do not approve of.

Yes!

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 17:15

@MissPiggysKarateChop then you must think there is something intrinsic to female bodies that means they are abused? What is that?

I'm not remotely suggesting that women don't face abuse of their bodies. But I am firm in my belief that this happens because women as a gender are devalued and oppressed, and their bodies are sites of this oppression. I don't think there is anything inherent about female bodies rather than male ones that make them more abusable.

fascinated · 22/03/2018 17:19

Perhaps not, Ihate, but frankly theoretical stuff like that is irrelevant to the actual people who have the female bodies that are being abused.

MsGameandWatching · 22/03/2018 17:21

No child of mine would serve a punishment for failing to adhere to this utter nonsense.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 17:21

Team, I have to bow out of this thread now as I'm going out for the evening. It's been much more pleasant and respectful than most trans threads on MN so thank you everyone for that Flowers I'll come back if therealposieparker ever comes back with that research she promised but not holding my breath there Grin

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 17:26

I'm not remotely suggesting that women don't face abuse of their bodies. But I am firm in my belief that this happens because women as a gender are devalued and oppressed, and their bodies are sites of this oppression. I don't think there is anything inherent about female bodies rather than male ones that make them more abusable.

While I believe that women are devalued as a result of their biological sex.

And yes I suppose there is something intrinsic to female bodies which means they are abused - biologically we are the sex who bleeds each month (something which is considered taboo by many cultures or sneered at - you may have heard women referred to as bleeders and breeders, bringing me to...) We are also the sex who bear children OR who cannot bear children and this is intrinsic to our female bodies. It makes us more vulnerable around pregnancy physically and mentally (due to hormones). We are the sex who physically weaker (again intrinsic to our bodies) making us easy to oppress/beat/kill when might implies right. All of this is our biological reality and intrinsic to the female body. IF we cannot menstruate or bear children it is down to some problem or perceived failing of our biology which can be a cause to ostracise or dismiss a woman as not being whole or a real women (a view I do not share ftr). It is our biology our intrinsic femaleness not the stereotypes imposed on us which causes much oppression.

That is not to say that gender does not cause some oppression but I believe women are oppressed as a result of who they are biologically and yes, therefore, something intrinsic to the female body.

MissPiggysKarateChop · 22/03/2018 17:27

It was good to discuss things with you too @Ihatemyclients. Have a lovely evening.

colouringinagain · 22/03/2018 17:28

Team?!

Biscuit

Woman = biologically female.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 17:34

Thank you hate. That's valid as an argument. I accept that.

Where I still have an issue is whether that definitively was because they were 'innately' something or whether it was still down to socialisation and not living up to the expectations of society. Is that 'gender identity' or just not fitting in?

I grew up in a household where me and my sibling were constantly told we were 'the wrong way around' and it had a huge effect on me. Why did I go one way and my sibling the other?

I also find the unexplained correlation with autism troubling and worthy of exploring. My sibling has lots of personality traits alone these lines. I possibly also have some. Given our upbringing I really can not get away from the socialised aspect to it all.

I have never 'fitted in'. I don't expect to, but I am at peace with this now.

Until these avenues are at least looked at and considered I find it very difficult to progress past it being a convenient political tools to control and compartmentalise humans.

I do think there needs to be a proper debate on this. Enforcing this on to people without doing so will just produce a backlash and a lack of proper understanding. That's not helpful to trans people in the long run.

I am extremely concerned about how we approach the whole subject for this reason. There has to be mutual understanding of the other side.

I personally do feel 'damaged' by it and that my own mental health has suffered as a direct result.

I don't think schools siding with one side helps any of that, and I do think a sizeable amount of this does come back to power and status.

Bekabeech · 22/03/2018 17:51

I do think there needs to be a proper debate on this.

This is so true, and without biological/cis/whatever women being shut down when they express concerns - as being TERF or whatever the latest put down is.

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 18:41

team Hmm

another Biscuit

CadyHeron · 22/03/2018 18:42

If we have "teams" - Hmm I'm on team common sense and based firmly in reality and not team cloud cuckoo land.

MissBartlettsconscience · 22/03/2018 18:47

I've committed the cardinal sin of not reading the whole thread, and only op's posts but just wanted to comment that it sounds awfully like someone's just finished reading Magnus Chase - rick Riordan of Percy Jackson's latest which has 'alex' a child of Loki whose gender changes by the day.

I'd rather that in all its nonsense than drugs and hormone treatments tho!

Albadross · 22/03/2018 20:02

'Man' is another useful descriptor.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 20:28

@redtoothbrush

*As the bullshit about the 'full weight of the medical profession' shit.

As for this crap 'Not when it has the full weight of the medical profession behind it'... *

While I'm completely respectful of your right not to believe in medical facts to dismiss the information in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorder and the ICD10, published by the World Health Organization as quasi-religious is a bit off.

It was obviously my imagination that someone from the Tavistock has openly come out publicly and said recently 'Hey I think we need to step back and look at this, this doesn't seem to be a normal pattern of diagnosis and there maybe something else going on here'.

Dr Polly Carmichael didn't claim that there were no trans children, she said that she was getting massive number of referrals, that seemed disproportionate. GPs are referring children who don't meet the guidelines or are not fully filling in the referral forms.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 20:32

Here's some information from the Tavistock about what they actually do:

gids.nhs.uk/about-us

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 21:25

The WHO are not immune from problems.

The term White hat bias exist for a reason
It was coined by public health researchers David Allison and Mark Cope to describe a purported "bias leading to the distortion of information in the service of what may be perceived to be righteous ends", which consist of both cherry picking the evidence and publication bias. Allison and Cope explained the motivation behind this bias in terms of "righteous zeal, indignation toward certain aspects of industry", and other factors.

If you would like an example of the WHO doing it, here you go:
straightstatistics.fullfact.org/article/funny-figures-who-caesareans

The whole pattern here is alarming. The suicide report quoted all the time is reported through blinkers rather than stepping back and questioning it.

Also saying it exists as a medical condition doesn't say why it exist and whether it is the product of social contagion in the same way as anorexia (or even in part a product of social pressures). Indeed Pro-Ana site are viewed as dangerous for this very reason. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

Nor is there a single definitive way of treating gender dysphoria, because the research does not exist. The current pathway of transition has been accepted but its problematic in terms of long term research. All this would help no matter what trans is or isn't.

Saying that trans is a belief rather than innate isn't inconsistent with this. People who are anorexia have beliefs that are incorrect and make them ill. There are a multitude of reasons why they are like that.

Many of those now coming out and claiming they are trans haven't been diagnosed by a doctor, nor do they want to be diagnosed. Indeed self id removes that from the equation. They will never go near a doctor. And there is a lot of concern that being trans isn't a one thing but several things that are all different. This is important. Are there some with a dysphoria medical condition, some with other mental health conditions and are effectively being misdiagnosed or are extremely vulnerable to suggestion and some who are piggy backing it for whatever other reason. And what of the high correlation with autism? There are too many questions here and not enough answers.

Polly Carmichael saying that there was a disproportionate number of referrals does suggest there is an issue. What that problem is, we don't know. We need to know why there is a sudden change, because that's part of understanding what being trans is and isn't.

The critical examination of the subject is seriously lacking. This is not a good state of affairs. It doesn't matter what side of the fence you sit on with this, the same hold true. As it will have long term consequences if we are all so blindsided by being ideological right, rather than focusing on the data without bias.

It is right to be asking these questions.

So yes I do think there is an issue, and I don't think the whole of the medical profession are on board with this because they have concerns about how this is being driven by white hat bias rather than data. I absolutely stand by what I said previously.

Forevertired19 · 22/03/2018 21:31

What gets me about this sort of thing is the teachers. Remember the one recently that was facing loosing his job for addressing a child the wrong gender?
I'm all for people making their choices and I do truly believe in this case, the soul enters the wrong body if they're genuine. An it's terrible for them to go through so much transformation but I 100% support it.

It's just a kid who's looking for attention in this case to me.

Stillscreaming · 22/03/2018 21:39

I'm not trying to stop you asking questions, however, I don't think the medical treatment given to anyone is a matter for public debate, it's between the patient and the clinician, with input from the family if a child is being treated.

Dr Carmichael is a consultant psychiatrists, with a multi disciplinary, specialist team. They work to NICE guidelines with evidence based medicine. I don't feel qualified to ask for a say in how she treats anyone.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 22:05

Well I don't argue with that as a principle.

Where we have a problem is with lobby groups who ARE making it into a public debate which states everyone should be treated in a singular way, and this lobbying is impacting on research and its creating a culture in which every medical professional does not feel able to freely constructively contribute to the advancement of the field because they have experience, evidence or expertise if they have something which goes counter to the monolithic nature of 'the right way' to treat a trans patient.

The danger in simply agreeing with whats gone before out of fear, is deeply troubling.

This is attitude is transfering from medicine to schools because its become an ideology that is being promoted. This is not healthy and may well do more harm in its own right, particularly if contagion is a factor.

My objection is that automatic well meaning bias isn't always a good thing and we do need to step back sometimes. We need to be particularly careful in this area because of the culture that surrounds it.

What particularly alarms me with trans is the active and deliberate resistance to doing research from some trans activists. If you want to prevent harm, you have to understand what you are dealing with and with the best will in the world, you can't do it without research. It does suggest they want it to be ideologically led not medically led.

As I said previously that is very dangerous not just for trans but also for other areas of medicine. Ideology and medicine are a bad pairing.