To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

[sleepyjane]

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

RedToothBrush

An excellent and pertinent analogy.

Thanks for those suggestions, ihate.

I wouldn’t use them because “living as a girl” and “be treated as a girl” are ideas that reinforce gender stereotypes and we work hard not to do that in our school. I prefer this from the Transgendertrend resource:

“When a boy or a girl feels that they have been born in the wrong body it’s called gender dysphoria. We don’t know why some children feel like that but it can make you feel sad so it’s important that we’re kind”

But unfortunately this was unacceptable to our PSHE lead.

I’d be interested to know how you’d explain it to a primary school child without making massive assumptions about their understanding of gender identity and how it differs from sex.

Could you explain to them the difference between gender identity and sex?

Can anyone explain what a woman is? If we can all identify as something whenever we feel like it and putting aside biology for a minute, then what does it mean to be a woman?
Other than my chromosomes what renders me a woman?

This is where the self-ID nonsense falls down. Because it seeks to negate physiology and basic biology. Because not all women can have children, not all women are menstruating, not all women wear make-up or skirts, not all women have long hair.

So then we're talking about a 'feeling'. Sometimes I feel sad, sometimes I feel happy; these are not permanent states. This 12 year-old has been lead down a very dangerous path and is in fact in need of psychological help. Not people pandering to the nonsense that she's trans or non-binary or whatever other made up term that the TRA movement has sought to invent to justify their scorched earth ideologies.

Children are generally much more open and understanding than adults because they don't have such fixed concepts of how things are.

Yes, many children believe they can grow up to be a horse or a dog, so it's not surprising they would think a boy can grow up to be a woman or a girl to be a man.

Believing you are 'born in the wrong body' is a quasi-religious belief.

Not when it has the full weight of the medical profession behind it. There's lots of stuff that I don't need to full understand about the workings of the mind and body that I just believe HCPs about, that's not quasi-religious, it's just mental efficiency.

Could you explain to them the difference between gender identity and sex?

I’d struggle without reference to gender stereotypes tbh.

@SuburbanRhonda of course that was unacceptable - you've just reduced transgenderism to nothing more than dysphoria (the two are NOT the same) and suggested that all trans people are sad and just need some kindness, which is ridiculous. You can't explain transgenderism in a way which fails to acknowledge that it exists and pretends that it's a mental illness instead.

Gender stereotypes have nothing to do with gender identity. You can be a transwoman and defy every 'feminine' stereotype going. Gender identity is an innate characteristic - it has nothing to do with the way you look, dress or act, or the job you do, or the hobbies you have, or the things you like.

A male lesbian. Who'd have thought it was possible?

Erm..... that is a total head mess sentence
This being a Labour spokesperson I think?
Just....yep, think it's safe to say the world does seem totally bonkers at the minute.

Not people pandering to the nonsense that she's trans or non-binary or whatever other made up term that the TRA movement has sought to invent to justify their scorched earth ideologies.

This is a child who has said that she doesn't know if she a boy or a girl. That won't even get her a referral to a gender clinic. The school could be going along with it for any number of reasons we don't know. I think we can all agree that she's a child with odd ideas and it's easier to go along with them than to force the point, which could push her into a corner.

you've just reduced transgenderism to nothing more than dysphoria (the two are NOT the same) and suggested that all trans people are sad and just need some kindness, which is ridiculous.

These are transgendertrend’s words. I’m a lot happier with that definition than references to “living as a girl” and “be treated as a girl”.

Some bits of your explanation, but leaving out the gender stereotype bits could be acceptable, I guess.

I think it’s worth mentioning that “why can’t people just be kind” is a common refrain from trans people on Twitter.

Haven't read the whole thread, but there was a comment early on about most 12 year olds knowing their sexual preference. I went to an all-girls' school with an all-female staff. Nearly everyone had 'a crush' on a senior girl or member of staff. It was openly discussed, with little fan clubs for particularly popular idols. And the overwhelming majority went on to discover boys and live heterosexual lives. I agree with pps that the current trend to label and regard sexual or gender preference as being fixed at 12 is a dangerous assumption. For some, yes. But for most, very definitely no.

ihatemyclients

But it is a mental illness, or at the least a delusion, believing something manifestly untrue to be true. We should be kind, of course we should, except when it has the potential to harm the vulnerable, especially children.

@SpringEquinox it isn't manifestly true or a delusion. It is very widely accepted by many - including cis people - that your gender and your sex do not necessarily correspond. You don't have to believe it - you can believe anything you like under the sun. But you can't insist that your beliefs be treated as facts.

@SuburbanRhonda there is a big difference between 'let's be kind because all people are worthy of tolerance, respect and acceptance' and 'let's be kind bedside trans people are mentally ill'

This could be my DD class friend but their age is 15. The problem they have is their pronouns change so often that the other children avoid so there are no accusations of transphobia. It is even difficult to write without misgendering so I can imagine having conversation is a mine field. The child often misgenders themself but that is ok, if anyone else does it they are straight to the head. Of course they are now claiming to be isolated because of transphobia even though there are other trans children who do not have this problem.

No, that’s not what the Transgendertrend resource says. It says be kind to people who are sad.

Just managed to read all the responses. I agree with a poster much further up thread who said she wishes schools would teach children that school girl crushes with other girls shouldn't be confused with being a lesbian. I do think 12 is a bit young to know what they want. But that wasn't the reason for my aibu, it's the insistence of the girl being able to demand she's referred to as a boy one day and a girl another day. I think it's wrong that kids are being faced with all this confusion over genders. I wonder who is responsible for all the confusion.

ihatemyclients
And yet you are doing precisely that, insisting your biologically deranged beliefs have any foundation in fact or truth. Trying to impose these beliefs by way of language distortion n- the absurd 'cis' - is a transparent ruse.

It is very widely accepted by many - including cis people

You can't just go re-labelling others to fit a belief and an ideal. Surely that's mislabelling in itself?
A biological woman is just that - a WOMAN. We already have a name. We don't need a new one "cis woman" to budge up for women with penises.
Can you not see how fucking offensive that is?
Call yourself what you like. You don't get to relabel others though.

It's entirely possible to believe that gender is an innate characteristic which doesn't always correspond with sex and have no belief whatsoever in souls or god. You're the one making a connection with religion - that certainly isn't everyone's view.

Its a belief that innate? Erm no.

Go on try it. Gender is not something that is fixed throughout history and culture. The term itself it new. If it was innate, it would appear in all societies throughout history and culture. Roles along the lines of sex appear but not gender.

Ideas of a 'third sex' in historical sense owe far more to politics and social structure than anything innate.

We had this to a small effect.
One of dc best friend came back after the holidays as a boy. No issues with that at all but my dc had known this child as Jane for five years and in the early weeks got mixed up and was utterly screamed at by the teen.
My dc has additional needs and was genuinely not doing it intentionally.
It's no longer an issue as everyone has got used to Jane being called John but it was awful at the time.

I suspect it would be difficult to get somebody with real experience to contribute though when the posting community has already decided trans stuff is stupid and attention seeking and 'going too far', why would they put themselves through that? It's not their job to try and convince transphobics to change. And I suspect would be futile.

And yet trans people do post on MN, on trans threads. You would know this if you read them rather than dismissing them as hateful.

@SuburbanRhonda then great. Let's be kind to people who are sad. That had nothing to do with talking to kids about what it means to be trans, however.

@CadyHeron I'm not relabelling you. I'm not saying you can't use the term woman. I would still call you a woman. But in situations where I'm specifically talking about cis women or trans women, I will use those descriptors for clarity.

@SpringEquinox 'foundation in fact and truth' is a slippery term here. There is no consensus on what it truly means to be a woman. Your belief that it requires a vagina is not probably true. As for 'biologically deranged' - I'm not discussing biology. My point has always been that biological sex is not the same as gender.

@RedToothBrush I didn't say gender was an innate belief, I said it was an innate characteristic.

Not when it has the full weight of the medical profession behind it

Does it really have 'the full weight of the medical profession behind it'?

Because I have read a lot of dissenting voices from within the NHS who are too afraid to speak up in what has become a pernicious environment where debate or dissension is silenced.