To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

[sleepyjane]

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

I know a 12 yr old girl who has adopted a name which could be m or f.
She insists on being addressed as 'it' rather than he or she.
School are supporting this.
I'm a bit unclear how it is helpful for her?

Lottapianos Perhaps you see it as 'pandering' to call somebody by what they've chosen to be called. To me it's just very simple basic respect.

If someone's name is Mr Rajaonarimampianina and he asks to be called Raj and I say 'but it's just pandering to you to act as if your actual name isn't Rajaonarimampianina' and kept calling him Mr Rajaonarimampianina despite his blatant indication he prefers another name, that would make me a prick. It's no difference with gender pronouns or other names. I'm assuming your issue is that it might change each day or week? I just don't care. Why wouldn't I do a very small thing, to make someone feel more respected, when they are already at more risk of bigotry and stigma than someone who isn't trans or genderqueer? What do I have to gain being a twat?

Basseting

The school are calling her by the pronoun or name she feels represents her best. They're respecting her desire to be referred to by something that feels to be the best fit for her.

I'm unclear as to how you think that's not helpful for her? Why do you think she asked?

It takes very little effort for DH and his colleagues to remember one extra name and use the right one. But the difference it makes to that person is significant. Why wouldn't you call them by the name they prefer?

Because its not just about names.

Saying its just about names and pronouns misses the point and is a very naïve point of view.

It is about saying I agree that you are the most vulnerable in the room and we need to put you on a pedestal for it. When in many cases its simply not true.

It is flawed in how it offers no respect in return. And you must respect trans always and unconditionally. No matter what.

The ideology and how it is presented is often sexist and homophobic.

Its about power first, identity second and actual vulnerability and need third.

Ps I always tell myself not to bother with trans threads as the level of nastiness and vitriol on this site towards anyone who is trans is sickening, so I may well bow out soon. I just think it's important to share your POV if you can stomach it to try and break the echo chamber a little, as I always enjoy seeing voices against the anti trans rhetoric on threads like this even if I'm not joining in, and I'm sure anyone reading who is directly affected by these issues would prefer to know there are people out there who don't hold these views.

And DH has a colleague who sometimes presents as a woman, other times as a man (with two wholly different names - they have one work account linked to two log ins so they can use the appropriate one on any given day).

Wow that is just mad.

Neutral non- gendered name used every day – no issue, neutral plural pronouns no issue.

Everyday being forced into having to give mental headspace to give a fuck about a work colleague’s gender just to be civil or get their name right is just odd.

I mean I can't even get my own kids names right every time- and I named them and they haven't changed ever and I have two of them over a bloody decade.

She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble.

Honestly if it was my 12 year old I say be civil where you have to interact and avoid the manufactured drama where you can.

It is about saying I agree that you are the most vulnerable in the room and we need to put you on a pedestal for it. When in many cases its simply not true.

How is referring to someone as he or she depending on the day making them vulnerable? What?

It is flawed in how it offers no respect in return.

If I respected someone's choice of pronouns and they didn't mine (for example constantly referred to me as a man) then I agree that'd be a lack of respect in return. But if they are referring to me how I feel is appropriate (as her/she) and I'm giving them the same respect, how is that not mutual respect?

@therealposieparker you think it's weird that I would doubt that trans children are bullies and yet you have swung into this thread and called them narcissists with no evidence to back up you assertion. You can imagine why I don't consider you remotely convincing.

@archeryannie I'm a bisexual too, and married to a man. Had a brief relationship with a girl at university which no one else knows about because I was scared to come out and terrified of what others would think. Am I one of your theoretical bisexuals? Or do I also get to talk about what it means to be queer because I know what it's like to suppress my desire and hide a significant part of my identity and live with the fact that many people who I love don't know this really important part of who I am? Privilege isn't a ladder. Apart from the fact that that approach totally fails to recognise any intersectionality, it inevitably prioritises some voices over others when actually the way to challenge oppression is to invite everyone to the table and to recognise the validity of their experiences.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude and yet people do have incredibly deep-rooted senses of their own gender. I know that's true of me. I know I'm not unique in that.

I think this is quite a common thing. I know of three kids who’ve done the same thing, friends of my older girls: two identities and not sure which one they are. I did wonder if they were struggling to accept their sexuality and this is seen as more acceptable. It’s confusing. I use the name I know them by and have been told off (by my children!) for this. They chop and change their name/identity on a week by week basis. It seems very common in high schools now. From what I’ve seen, it’s a temporary thing (for the ones I know anyway)

Sounds like juvenile attention-seeking by DGD’s classmate.
And shouldn't be pandered to any more/less than any other attention seeking behaviour.

@LimonViola I couldn't agree more re the echo chamber and it's so heartening when I see that there are other voices out there! You've made absolutely brilliant points on this thread.

Thanks Ihatemyclients, you too. I was just tempted to thank you for your point about intersectionality and inviting all voices to the table.

I often think it's a bit ironic how most of the voices on these threads, including mine, are from posters who aren't trans, speaking as if we have any real lived experience or experiential knowledge on the topic.

I suspect it would be difficult to get somebody with real experience to contribute though when the posting community has already decided trans stuff is stupid and attention seeking and 'going too far', why would they put themselves through that? It's not their job to try and convince transphobics to change. And I suspect would be futile.

I can't see many PP going 'yeah fair play, I can't fully understand this so let's respectfully sit and listen and learn without shouting my mouth off'.

If it were the case that people simply had a “deep-rooted sense of their own gender”, that would be fine because that’s a belief, and therefore wouldn’t concern anyone else.

It’s where it crosses over into forcing people to collude with the belief that support falls away.

As I’ve posted on here before, I’ve been told by our LA’s PHSE lead that if a child asks me the question, “so is x a girl now?” I’m not permitted to say no. In other words, I could lose my job by refusing to lie to a child.

How is that respectful?

It's the absurdity of 'can't decide if she wants to be male or female' that gets to me.

It's not a choice. She's female. She can be as unfeminine as she likes, she can explore her own identity and personality and sexuality, but she's female. I wonder if she's so confused by the penguin-story rubbish in primary schools that she actually doesn't realise this?

But yes it's def worth posting just to counteract the echo chamber so it's clear not everyone has those views, even if you're outnumbered and bow out, the points have been made.

What's a neutral colour?

I'm wearing blue jeans and a pink t-shirt. Should I wear pink both on my girlie days and blue both on my manly days so people know whether to call me she or he.

Maybe I need to wear black on days I wish to be called they

Can't you see this is ridiculous, Limon? That person isn't expressing their gender, they are expressing their personality and demanding everyone else NOTICE them. Do you think s/he should be able to come in on some days wearing green and demanding to be called Paddy? And other days carrying a cricket bat and demanding to be called Bruce. Or maybe come in occasionally wearing a furry hat and demanding to be called Rover?

@dancinfeet
hate all the 'look at meeeeee' attention crap. If you want to change sex, get on with it. Why turn it into a 3 act drama with the rest of the class as their supporting cast?!

Can I just remind you we are talking about A CHILD.

I often think it's a bit ironic how most of the voices on these threads, including mine, are from posters who aren't trans, speaking as if we have any real lived experience or experiential knowledge on the topic.

My sibling is trans.

I went through two years wishing I was a man which had a profound effect on my life. Years before 'trans'. Today, I would probably end up in the trans maelstrom. I still have massive issues relating to my sex. Which included having a C-section due to mental health reasons.

Don't assume that others here don't have experience. Don't assume that they are prejudice. Don't assume that their concerns aren't just about women but also trans people themselves.

I think it's worth highlighting Maryz that the decision to focus on clothing items was mine, not the PP's DH's colleague. I have no idea what they use to denote what gender they want to be referred to. I just, maybe erroneously, wondered if there was some visible sign so that people knew what pronoun to use rather then having to rather time consumingly ask every time you meet them.

*Because its not just about names.

Saying its just about names and pronouns misses the point and is a very naïve point of view*

Actually, sometimes it is just about names and pronouns. Addressing someone the way they've asked to be addressed is basic respect. It's not pandering, there's no special treatment, no one's treading on eggshells, it's just one day they might be Sally, the other day Steve. It takes less headspace to accommodate that than it does to froth and foam at the mouth about sneaky trans folk and make a point of only ever using Steve.

I'm also bowing out now as it's getting toxic, but I'm glad for DH's colleague's sake they work with more understanding people than many on this thread.

It’s confusing. I use the name I know them by and have been told off (by my children!) for this.

I'd end up like sounding like Grannie Weatherwax saying that Agnes Nitt what's taken to calling herself - what was it P something - Perdita with letter from arse of the alphabet when I try and talk about their friends with them.

Don't assume that others here don't have experience. Don't assume that they are prejudice. Don't assume that their concerns aren't just about women but also trans people themselves.

Fair point, not to make assumptions. I used 'most' to make it clear I'm not saying all. From what a lot of people have posted though it's pretty obvious that they're not trans. If they are then I would be glad to know.

I think it's fair to refer to a belief as prejudiced if you believe it is, it's an opinion after all. There's an awful lot of prejudice all over this site against trans people and a very nasty air about a lot of it.

I'm also bowing out now as it's getting toxic, but I'm glad for DH's colleague's sake they work with more understanding people than many on this thread.

I'm glad too! And I'm also bowing out as like you say, it's getting toxic.

As it always does.

The important thing is that the children are being supported in their chosen gender, genders or lack thereof

But Limon, how do they "demonstrate" who they are today?

Let's take the trans element out of it. Suppose everyone in a company had multiple names, multiple id's, multiple personae, and everyone else had to remember them all, how would that work?

Would they present as two different personae with a visiting client? How do they introduce themselves? If they are Andy one day and Bill another (no change of gender involved), and one wants to be addressed formally as Mr and the other wants to be addressed informally as Bill, how on earth are workmates/anyone else meant to cope?

It's just silly; some of us may have multiple names (birth vs married, full vs nickname etc etc), but pick one for work, ffs, and stick with it.

The trans/gender bit is an added irritation (why not be a man wearing pink and makeup?); the practicality of it is totally ridiculous.