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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

263 replies

sleepyjane · 22/03/2018 11:03

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

OP posts:
Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 22/03/2018 13:23

But what does "forced to live as their assigned sex" actually mean in relation to children?

therealposieparker · 22/03/2018 13:23

NO CHILD IS DRIVEN TO SUICIDE... stop repeating this. the suicide of trans kids is lower than that of homosexual kids.

ArcheryAnnie · 22/03/2018 13:23

you don't stop being bisexual just because you marry a man and have kids

Very true - and most bisexuals do end up in relationships with people of the opposite sex.

But there's plenty of lesbians, bi people and gay men who are so very fed up with bi people whose bisexuality is entirely theoretical, but who nonetheless bang on about it all the time. If someone has done nothing but live a perfectly nice life in heterosexual relationships, then i don't want to hear them make a constant big deal of how so very "queer" they are when what they mean is that they once kissed a girl/boy (delete as appropriate) at university. Are these people bi? Sure, maybe, why not! But it doesn't make their straight relationship gay, and I don't want to be constantly told how very queer and alternative they are all the fecking time. It's appropriation, and it's tedious.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 13:25

@therealposieparker you're going to need to link to that study if you're trying to present a credible defence to your otherwise nasty and bigoted statement.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude I don't believe gender is merely a stereotype. It makes no difference to your gender what you wear or how you look or the hobbies you have or the jobs you do. Gender is an innate part of your self that doesn't require or rely on any external appearances or internal characteristics.

I agree gender stereotypes are useless and stupid. I don't believe that has any bearing on the existence or rights of trans people.

ArcheryAnnie · 22/03/2018 13:25

Having said that rant above - that's aimed at adults, not teens. It's OK for teens to be exploratory and/or confused, as that's what your teens are for.

(And it's OK for adults to be exploratory and/or confused, I just don't want those who are in straight relationships to Top Trump how very queer they are.)

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 22/03/2018 13:26

Are you fucking serious, Limon?? On days they feel male they wear trousers and on days they feel female they wear a dress??
I'm wearing trousers right now. It makes not a jot of difference to me whether anybody thinks I'm male or female, and I will feel exactly the same as I do now if I change into a skirt.

LimonViola · 22/03/2018 13:26

I bet the teachers at this girls’ school are quaking in their boots. One accidental misgendering and they’ll be suspended pending a transphobia investigation.

I very much doubt it.

I suspect schools have rules around it to make sure transphobic bullying can be identified and stamped out, to get past the sneery people (like many on this thread) who will use any excuse to 'accidentally' misgender someone and then claim it was an accident with wide eyed innocence, over and over again.

People can tell the difference between purposeful disrespect and mocking and a genuine 'oops sorry, I meant something different' and then remembering for next time.

SuburbanRhonda · 22/03/2018 13:28

The same is true of ALL children however - including intersex children assigned a gender at birth and made to live as either male or female without regard to their own views

@Ihatemyclients

The intersex community has been begging trans activists to stop piggybacking on their struggles and has issued statements asking them to stop.

Observing the sex of baby boy or girl is in no way related to the practice of assigning a birth sex to an intersex baby.

therealposieparker · 22/03/2018 13:28

hate...

I will later when the person who cited it has finished work.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2018 13:28

We know that forcing trans children to live as their birth gender can have devastating consequences, including long term mental health problems and suicide. That is a sign that we don't currently have it right.

No we don't know that. This is actually a MASSIVE part of the problem and the debate.

The first problem I have with this is the assumption that being trans is something monolithic. Your identity is that and no one can say anything else.

The co-morbidity with mental health raises the legitimate question over whether declaring yourself trans is merely a symptom of other issues, rather than the mental health issues being a symptom of being trans.

No one has tackled this properly because of the affirmation culture and the hostility to doing research in this area.

The suicide stats regularly, and irresponsibility, quoted have hidden issues when you delve into the data deeper which further raise legitimate questions.

Even when females medically trans there doesn't seem to be a marked improvement. Why? And why is this never mentioned in relation to women considering transition. A significant weight of opinion in trans circles is to encourage medical transition without gatekeeping on the basis that it saves lives, yet the stats they use as evidence to support this, doesn't work for females who identify as trans.

Its an important thing to be aware of for the benefit of females. Yet we can't say this, because 'transphobic'.

This pressure isn't coming from people who are deemed transphobic.

And yet its harmful to the very people who its supposed to protect.

This blindness and dominance of ideology in people who are often very vulnerable because of associated mental health issues is bullshit and does need to be challenged.

The reality is that there needs to be intervention in a lot of cases. This isn't transphobic. Its because there are issues that go hand in hand. If adults don't want to consent to medical involvement for this, that's fine, its their choice but at the same time they shouldn't be allowed to hold a gun to a HCPs head demanding that all trans people should have medical intervention which has long term consequences.

That HCP has sworn to 'do no harm'. Forcing them to go against that in a blanket way, rather than assess individuals on a one by one basis exposes HCPs to legal action for unethical behaviour and it exposes vulnerable people who identify as trans to an ideology that doesn't necessarily have their best interests at heart.

Ideology has no place in medicine. If trans ideology is allowed to get a foot hold over scientific evidence then this has knock on effects and allows ideology into other areas of medicine. I have a massive problem with this. It just means, if you pour in enough money, you can dictate access to health. It affects women disproportionately too. Areas in medicine most vulnerable to ideology are childbirth and access to abortion.

This is a huge big deal.

There are lots of other issues here. Most currently surround self Id (which isn't the magic bullet suggested, precisely because the pressure to alter your body in someway and to 'conform' doesn't come from the wider community alone - a huge and perhaps higher amount - comes from the trans community which is unable to apply nuance to anything including itself).

But it is not exclusive to self Id. There are big issues over consent and medical ethics.

Every time mental health is invoked as a reason to actively encourage and affirm, I want to scream. Its extremely ignorant and not based on anything more that a bunch of poorly conducted surveys with some of the worst methodology I've ever seen, combined with scientific studies which have been reported and misinterpreted in some of the most poor and shocking ways I've ever seen.

TerfyMcTerface · 22/03/2018 13:28

I bet the teachers at this girls’ school are quaking in their boots. One accidental misgendering and they’ll be suspended pending a transphobia investigation.

Worse than that. If Mermaids find out about it, they'll be sending in the police.

LimonViola · 22/03/2018 13:28

Well done on spectacularly missing the point Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar. I chose trousers and skirt as an example but it could be anything. It could be that they'll make it clear with their name tag or wearing a certain colour, who knows.

I'm not suggesting that changing your clothing makes it impossible for anyone to guess your gender, clearly, but you knew that anyway didn't you?

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 13:29

@ArcheryAnnie but you're the one top trumping queerness by suggesting that it's approproative for bisexuals to identify as queer and discuss their experiences within that! Has it occurred to you that the reason so many bisexuals end up in relationships with people of the opposite gender is because of bi erasure and oppression? It's completely nonsensical to suggest they there is a hierarchy of queer and that bisexuals don't get to speak because they aren't high up enough on the pyramid. Everyone's experiences are valid, everyone is allowed to discuss the reality of their own life.

therealposieparker · 22/03/2018 13:30

Sod that. My kids know that they don't have to pretend they agree with attention seeking pronoun garbage. We will not use language that is compelled. Fuck that.

Ihatemyclients · 22/03/2018 13:31

@therealposieparker I'll wait with bated breath Hmm dies of old age in the meantime

BlackRibboner · 22/03/2018 13:32

I swear some people would rather bend over backwards to be rude and make a point they don't respect someone's desire to be known by the identity they feel best suits them than act like a decent human being from one person to another. Nasty.

This. It takes very little effort for DH and his colleagues to remember one extra name and use the right one. But the difference it makes to that person is significant. Why wouldn't you call them by the name they prefer?

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 22/03/2018 13:32

My point is that how you feel inside does not have to be validated by all around you in an environment where it's not particularly relevant. Particularly when that "feeling" changes by the hour.

Lottapianos · 22/03/2018 13:35

'On days they feel male they wear trousers and on days they feel female they wear a dress??'

Dear god. I'm wearing a skirt today, but also big clumpy flat leather boots. And a full face of make up and a manicure but my hair is short. I'm terribly confused Hmm

Limon, can you not see how ridiculous it is to be pandering to these stereotypes? That guy (lets call him Steve) can change how he presents himself from day to day, and it's totally fine by me if he wears a dress and heels etc, but he is still Steve (or whatever) and he is still a man. He just is. Your sex is not something you can take on and put off when you feel like it. How he chooses to present himself is something entirely different

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 22/03/2018 13:37

Ihate
"ChazsBrilliantAttitude I don't believe gender is merely a stereotype. It makes no difference to your gender what you wear or how you look or the hobbies you have or the jobs you do. Gender is an innate part of your self that doesn't require or rely on any external appearances or internal characteristics."

What exactly do you think gender is? How in your definition is gender any different from personality? If being a woman was only defined as XY chromosomes, with no social or cultural expectations on how a person with those chromosomes behaved then, in my view, gender is redundant as a concept as there is no gender to be. You are just yourself.

SuburbanRhonda · 22/03/2018 13:37

I suspect schools have rules around it to make sure transphobic bullying can be identified and stamped out

We don’t. Our LA’s model safeguarding policy makes no reference to trans children, just statements about inclusion that talks about all children equally.

Ofsted came in in December and didn’t ask anything about transgender issues at all.

therealposieparker · 22/03/2018 13:38

hate... weird that you doubt this. You seriously think kids that wish to stick out like a sore thumb and ride roughshot through the rights of others are unlikely to be bullies??? Brilliant.

LimonViola · 22/03/2018 13:38

I will add that I've never come across anybody trans online or offline who has reacted to somebody mistakenly referring to them by the wrong gender with anything other than a polite 'oh, it's actually him/her!' and moving on. Not sure where the hordes of trans individuals are who are waiting to pounce aggressively and start a disciplinarian investigation when someone accidentally misgenders them. They'd have nothing to gain and I suspect not enough time in the day to do that each time.

I reckon people hear about the occasions when somebody does snap and react to purposeful ongoing nasty bullying misgendering and paint their own opinions over it to turn it into a 'bloody can't say anything these days can you, everyone's scared shitless to get it wrong' when in reality their attitude means they almost certainly aren't someone who makes even a smidgen of effort to refer to someone by their chosen pronouns.

If my colleague asked me to refer to them as a particular gender or name I'd say 'yeah sure' and think nothing of it.

ArcheryAnnie · 22/03/2018 13:39

It's completely nonsensical to suggest they there is a hierarchy of queer and that bisexuals don't get to speak because they aren't high up enough on the pyramid.

You mistake me, Ihatemyclients. Bisexuals (and I am a bisexual) are already higher on the privilege ladder than gays and lesbians, because we benefit from straight privilege, and bisexuals in straight relationships (and especially bisexuals whose bisexuality is only theoretical, and who have never had to face homophobia) are certainly higher on the privilege ladder than bisexuals who are in same-sex relationships.

Or maybe I'm just sick of reading about queer pansexual celeb weddings where the only thing that distinguishes it from any other straight wedding is that the bride has cropped hair and the groom painted his nails for the occasion.

But I will drop out of this because I think it's a derail (my fault). If you want to continue this on another thread, I'd be happy to.

LimonViola · 22/03/2018 13:40

Fine, it was stupid and stereotyping to say skirts and trousers, stupid me. I should have chosen something less stereotypical like whether someone has their hair down or tied up or wears a certain 'neutral colour'. Consider me chastised!

LimonViola · 22/03/2018 13:41

SuburbanRhonda well, that seems positive to me. Treat transphobic bullying exactly the same as any other bullying.

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