To think the world has gone stark raving bonkers

[sleepyjane]

Sorry it's another trans one but this is a ridiculous one. I have a twelve year old dgd who has told me that a girl in her class, who identifies herself as a lesbian has now told class mates that she can't decide whether she wants to be female or male. She's given herself two names, and told everyone that when she wants to be a girl everyone has to call her Ann (made up name) and when she wants to be a boy everyone must call her Tom. She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble. Surely this can't happen.

Would a school really pander to this. Has anyone any advice what to say to my dgd. Surely at 12 she doesn't even know if she's a lesbian no mind the wrong gender. I don't really blame the girl for all this, she's obviously swept up in all the confusion.

I agree with OP. It’s nuts.

I also agree with GrassisGreener - passing same sex attractions do happen in young girls. In girls’ stories - particularly boarding school stories - pupils were always having a “pash” as they called it on young and attractive mistresses.

Also, are gay men and lesbians going to die out, because it’s a simple case of “just” needing reassignment to the opposite sex?

Being twelve and being a girl is proper shit. On the one hand you are expected to move towards independence while on the other you become increasingly aware of how your sex makes you vulnerable and the pressure to manage and minimise your exposure to this harm. I felt utterly without power and agency at twelve.

So if I'd have found an avenue to make people jump through ever changing hoops, I'd might have done it just for sport. It would be easy to assume that this kid was the victim of an ever pervasive trans ideology but she might be wielding it or she might be adopting it to gain more (perceived?) freedom.

Hardly, when Lily Madigan has decided to be a lesbian for this week
A male lesbian. Who'd have thought it was possible?

She's also said that if anyone refers to her by the wrong gender then they're being "trans phobic" or whatever she calls it and as such the guilty child will get in trouble.

That's what the pupil says. What does the school say?

OP, I would recommend that your child keeps a distance from this girl. She sounds remarkably aware of the power that the words "transphobe" now have.

And while I'd like to think that the school would have enough sense to ignore this girl's antics, I think it's also possible that they would take her side if she were to take offense at anything that another pupil says to her (even inadvertent comments or accidental misgendering) and start making complaints about transphobia. You wouldn't want that on your child's record.

@Kokeshi123 you don't stop being bisexual just because you marry a man and have kids

Of course not. I was using that as a kind of quick metaphor for "over the past 20 odd years I've never heard of any of them, like actually having a girlfriend."

I seem to remember some of them snogged each other at school discos. While the boys were watching.

@kokeshi123 then what point are you making? Because so far it just sounds like you don't think bisexuality is a legitimate sexual orientation based on your experiences of some teenage girls 20 years ago.

I bet the teachers at this girls’ school are quaking in their boots. One accidental misgendering and they’ll be suspended pending a transphobia investigation.

I don't think schools have much choice at the moment. If they don't pander, they can be hauled over the coals for "transphobia".

Meanwhile, girls who for whatever reason don't want to share toilets or changing rooms with people with penises have to lump it or be educated out of their "transphobia".

Trans identifying kids are mostly narcissistic little bullies...

@ArcheryAnnie that may be your opinion but it is contradicted by many, many children who identify as trans and are able to understand what that means. I'm not talking about all gender non-conforming children here - but there ARE children who are emotionally mature enough to understand their own sense of self. We can't erase them by saying that all children are automatically cisgender until they turn 18 and magically become capable of understanding themselves.

We know that forcing trans children to live as their birth gender can have devastating consequences, including long term mental health problems and suicide.

Do we?

I am not trying to stir, here. Many surveys, not just the crappy much-quoted Stonewall one, suggest that trans people have more mental health problems than average. But the stats I've seen have NOT clearly distinguished between mental health before and after transition, or suicidal feelings before and after transition, or whether trans identity is correlated with mental health problems but isn't causing them.

Also, child and teenage suicides are awful. But they occur in much, much lower numbers each year than the thousands being referred to gender clinics. The ONS puts it at about 18 deaths per year in LGBT people under 25 (and presumably not all of those are trans). That's no cause for complacency but it does contrast with the narrative of 'support your child's transition or they'll die'.

@therealposieparker what an obviously ridiculous statement. How many trans kids have you actually met? What gives you the experience to make such a sweeping generalisation? Remember you're talking about CHILDREN here...

How can you misgender someone who's Arthur one minute and Martha the next? Clearly they have no issue being either, depending on which way the wind is blowing.

"Because so far it just sounds like you don't think bisexuality is a legitimate sexual orientation based on your experiences of some teenage girls 20 years ago."

Nope.

What I am saying is that girls who giggle that they are "bisexual," kiss each other while boys are watching, and don't have girlfriends, are probably not bisexual, just attention seeking.

A lot of straight men think that two attractive women making out with each other is hot. Some silly girls and women play along with this.

Of course some people are bisexual. I don't think these girls/women are/were.

I don't think I can make myself any plainer.

There is no such thing as a trans child. There is such a thing as a child who thinks they are going to change sex or are the other sex, lots of gay teens report such feelings as small children. However once these kids fall in love/have a crush mostly their sense of self falls into place... except the homophobic kids and anything us better than being gay, ammirite?

My issue with this is that it reinforces sex role/gender stereotypes. If you are supportive - why are you so sure it’s the childrens’ bodies that are wrong, and not the stereotypes? Why can’t we just ditch stereotypes? Why are the stereotypes more important than reality? Why not abolish “gender” and let girls live as less stereotypically feminine girls? Serious question.

I know damned well what I'm talking about...

What child demands the whole fucking school get on board with their delusion, their subjective notion of who they are? What child thinks any one else would care?

There was a recent survey about bullying and although not in conclusion the findings showed "trans" kids were more likely to bully other kids, than normal kids.

Trans identifying kids are mostly narcissistic little bullies...

No they aren't

What a weird comment to make based on, What?, a handful of kids that you may have met

Ihate
How about we focus our efforts on hammering gender stereotypes. Gender is an entirely social construct. I am not a woman because I like pink and have swishy hair (I hate pink and my hair is far too recalcitrant to ever be swishy) I am a woman because I have female biology.

However, my female biology shouldn't be a determinant of what jobs I do, what games I could play as a child, what subjects I am assumed to be good at, what clothes I wear. If gender stereotypes go then people won't be the wrong gender because they can present however they want and that will be right for them.

@Lancelottie I'm not advocating anything as simple as telling people to 'support their child's transition or they'll die'. But ANY child driven to suicide because they're forced to live as their assigned sex is a sign that we don't have this right. It isn't impossible to imagine a world where children who have the maturity and competence to do so are supported in their desire to transition while also ensuring that children who are simply non-conforming or confused or uncertain aren't pressured into anything. We don't have to throw any kids under the bus if we just accept that gender can be complicated and kids might need time and support and resources when navigating it.

I'd suggest minding your own business . . .

Kids aren't emotionally mature enough to have sex, or have tattoos, or deal with parent break ups....

why are the trans activists so hell bent on making children have agency like this? It's really dodgy.

can't believe that's tolerated in a working environment, BlackRibboner?! Someone making people address him as different names depending on how he feels? Why does how he feels have to be factored into the working day?

And this is an issue why?

As long as there's some way to signal what the person wishes to be referred to by on any given day I don't see it's particularly onerous to respect someone's wishes for how they'd like to be addressed.

Say on days where they feel make they wear trousers and days they feel female they wear a dress, it's hardly difficult to notice and if you do speak to or refer to the person use the requested pronoun. How is that difficult? It's basic respect.

And if you're not sure or haven't seen them for a while it's perfectly simple to use 'they'. 'Oh, I haven't seen them. Why don't you ask or ring them yourself?' 'Yeah I saw them going into the canteen half an hour ago' etc.

I'd assume that for someone to go through the effort of making this request known then it's quite important to them, their reasoning is none of my business. To deliberately refuse to refer to somebody by what they've asked you to is rude, whether you're calling Melanie 'Mel' against her known wishes or continually calling someone who appears as female 'she' when they've made it clear they want to be seen as a 'him'.

I swear some people would rather bend over backwards to be rude and make a point they don't respect someone's desire to be known by the identity they feel best suits them than act like a decent human being from one person to another. Nasty.