to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

Which, seeing as one would have about 5 million times the impact of the other seems all the wrong way round to me

Given that it's abundantly clear your concern isn't in good faith, leave that up to feminists to decide, maybe?

Last I checked, posies tweets were still up. They may have been taken down since.

But having read them, they are not - imo - criminal. They're maybe a bit blunt, but they are factual. So not even any potential for libel (which would of course be civil anyway)

Nanny I wouldn't mind shops etc. asking questions, and they wouldn't need to request a GRC (because gender non-conforming individuals who weren't trans wouldn't have one for a start!). They could just ask for ID, surely?

But I've just this second discovered that one can change the gender on one's driving licence already by sending either a deed poll or a statutory declaration. Not much more to it that the form you need to fill in really! So people would essentially have ID pretty easily anyway, in whatever gender they chose.

Ans whilst I might not mind being asked for my ID to use the ladies' loo, I can imagine that as a woman with facial hair or an effeminate man or a very tall woman may not be so pleased that this was the way society was going! And all of us I think would suffer from that perceived increased pressure to conform to rigid stereotypes.

But I've just this second discovered that one can change the gender on one's driving licence already by sending either a deed poll or a statutory declaration

I had to send in a letter from my GP as well. The GP had to confirm I was undergoing gender reasignment.

Maybe it's changed?

I mean simply that if we just carry on as we are now and we break down rigid sterotypes of how "male" and "female" present, then no-one will be able to know whether people are in the "right" toilets for their sex anyway, so essentially we'll have "self-ID" by default!

I don’t think this is true. It’s usually pretty easy to see the difference between a man in a dress/make-up and a woman. In the same way I don’t think many people would seriously mistake a tomboy/butch woman for a man if they are looking carefully.

LOL Ereshkigal, what are you talking about? I have no doubt my feminist credentials could give most people's a run for their money

But anyway, I shouldn't get drawn into such things. Anyone who puts any weight behind the nebulous "not in good faith" statements can perfectly easily Advanced Search my username themselves.

I'm quite consistent really. And prolific these days!

Obviously I'm not going to persuade still, any more than she will persuade me of the opposite.

But for any curious readers, here is the thread on Posie Parker's twitter posts and police interview... www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3190731-Woman-questioned-under-caution-and-banned-from-leaving-the-country-for-criticising-Mermaids

I just got it off [[https://www.gov.uk/id-for-driving-licence here] yetanother

"If you’ve changed your gender, send DVLA one of the following:

a deed poll
a statutory declaration
your gender recognition certificate"

More than happy to be corrected though :)

Effeminate men still tend to look like men

Tall women still tend to look like women

Women with facial hair still tend to look like women

There have always been exceptions to any rule but in the past it's generally not been an issue

It seems to be an issue now...whats changed

If it as easy as sending in a deed poll - rather than having a letter from a GP - then it does almost look as if self ID is here.

To change your gender on your passport, you need a letter from your GP.
www.gov.uk/changing-passport-information/gender

Send one of the following when you apply for a passport:

a Gender Recognition Certificate
a new birth or adoption certificate showing your acquired gender
a letter from your doctor or medical consultant confirming your change of gender is likely to be permanent
If you’re sending a letter from your doctor or medical consultant and you’re changing your name, you’ll also need to supply both of the following:

evidence of your change of name (such as a deed poll)
evidence that you’re using your new name (for example a payslip, or a letter from your local council)

Maybe you're right Speedy, but just think ahead to the world we're all hoping for. Where women can be anything, do anything, wear anything. Men can do the same. Men look like women and women look like men. Some on the early pages of this thread seem to imagine that the current very well transitioned transpeople might also just be thought of as gender non-conforming in that future.

Do you really think every teenaged shop assistant taking a cursory glance at the individual waiting in line for the changing rooms will know if they're in the right queue for their biological sex?

And I say this as someone who has been mistaken for a boy before, albeit when I was a spotty teenager with a tash.

It seems to be an issue now...whats changed

Good question, but it seems to me it's because gender stereotypes aren't rigidly adhered to anymore, and actually it's the transpeople whose non-conformity seems to have kicked off all the problems!

Do you really think every teenaged shop assistant taking a cursory glance at the individual waiting in line for the changing rooms will know if they're in the right queue for their biological sex?

Yes, 99% of the time. It’s really not that hard. It’s much harder for shop assistants to judge people’s ages when selling alcohol, and they manage that with a request to see ID when in doubt.

We're not talking about asking for ID though are we, there were two options: one was go by looks, two was be able to ask for ID.

If you think looks is enough, that's basically self-ID because we don't ID people to use the loo.

If you want to go down the rabbit hole of asking people for ID, with the problems I've already given you, not only would transpeople already have ID for their acquired identity, but it looks like it would be pretty easy to fake it if you were so inclined!

So really no-one's any better off.

Rat I don’t want to be rude but I think you’ve misread who is campaigning for this. This is not about transsexual (under the old parlance). If you look around at who is campaigning for these changes there is a lot of talk of being ‘gender fluid’ and then (confusingly) being able to identify as a different sex depending on how you feel in that moment.

I agree that people should be able to wear and act in any way that they want. This is what breaking down gender stereotypes is about. The freedom to express yourself how ever you want.

But this currently being confused with wanting to change Sex.

What need separating out here is the needs of those with gender dysphoria (who want to change sex), those who want to be gender fluid and how we separate sex and gender. Including, how to break down gender stereotypes.

I have no answers. Only questions.

Yes Nanny, i can see there are the two camps.

It's the transexuals who would benefit (see footnote) from the changes to the GRC (so that kind of self-ID).

And it's the gender-fluid sort who would benefit from the day to day sort of self-ID, toilets and what have you.

I also have no answers.

Footnote: The're the ones who will always come very close to passing, or entirely pass, anyway so won't care if shops are stricter with their changing rooms. They're also the ones who are suffering the added pain of the current GRC application process after putting themselves through everything to transition in the first place.

They're also the ones who are suffering the added pain of the current GRC application process after putting themselves through everything to transition in the first place

See - this is something that I don't think is an issue. Yes, it's a long time - but it does show that you have committed to the process.

I don't think it's a pain. Certainly not compared to the process of transition itself.

The're the ones who will always come very close to passing, or entirely pass, anyway

Not really. That's more age dependant.

f you think looks is enough, that's basically self-ID because we don't ID people to use the loo.

It used to be the position that if a woman saw a man in a female only area (eg bathrooms, changing areas etc), they could get security and ask them to verify that the person had a right to be there (eg through ID).

We are now being told that we mustn’t do this because it is transphobic and we should just hope that we aren’t attacked, and report it afterwards if we are.

I don’t think that this is acceptable. Women’s safety must be paramount. There are already too many victims of sexual assault. The trans agenda is removing protection that women desperately need.

I don't think it's a pain. Certainly not compared to the process of transition itself.

No, I'm sure it isn't. I only have limited accounts to draw on about this you see, and it's a mixed bag. Some say it was nothing, some say it was awful. I defer to any authority on this - I don't claim to understand at all!

I defer to any authority on this - I don't claim to understand at all

I suppose everyone has different experiences. I certainly had enough 'evidence' to get one - but when you look at the numbers, not many people apply for one - maybe that's reflected in the number of people having surgery - which seems to be a very low number.

I honestly thought I was in a miniscule group when it comes to trans people - but the group seems bigger when you add up those in the extended trans umbrella.

yetanouthertranswoman

Ive read that under the trans umbrella according to some people are women with PCOS and people who don't believe they have a gender...so loads of feminists

It seems to be getting bigger...soon everyone will be under it and then i dont know what will happen

Looks like we can also all agree that the trans "umbrella" is totally batshit

My mum is trans under stonewalls umbrella