to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

lost agreed. The range of opinion on this has been interesting. Someone on another thread (who’s NN I cannot remember) said ‘we’re not the borg’.

It’s true. There are as many approaches to this as grains of sand in the desert. The only way to find common ground is to keep talking sensibly to each other and ignore the people trying to pull the conversation to extremes.

The robust discussion is what I like best about Mumsnet, particularly the feminist board. I've had my opinions challenged and sometimes changed so many times, that's got to be good, hasn't it?

I've had my opinions challenged and sometimes changed so many times, that's got to be good, hasn't it?

Absolutely

Poise never used hate speech. She used the word castration which is true and she is being unfairly persecuted

If you thought that the police were arresting people for using the word 'castration', even erroneously, I don't think you'd be using it here. Her actions went much further than that.

There are people in both groups here. We are not the Borg.

Exactly, that's why it's so important that people are clear about what the aims of different groups are and the cross over between them.

Just to clarify (please don't think I'm being condescending, I just want to make sure we're on the same page!) but even if there this thing we're all referring to as "self-ID" were law, that is NOT the same kind of self-ID as shops etc. are bringing in.

So even if it were law that you could self-identify to get your GRC, that doesn't mean shops etc. have to allow people to self-identify into changing rooms etc.

So at the moment, a lot of places have formalised this "let people use the facilities they want" thing, but some haven't, and they say "sorry, you don't look like someone who should be using our men's changing room (I'm looking at you, M&S), please use the ladies'". And that's okay. But they wouldn't be able to formalise that approach either, because then you'd get this weird scenario of shop staff policing changing rooms on the basis of their own stereotypical ideas of the two genders... How would that work?

Or they could ask for ID? But as you can already change the gender on your driving licence by simply sending a deed poll or statutory declaration (I just Googled this right now - hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong) then that wouldn't achieve anything either!

If you thought that the police were arresting people for using the word 'castration', even erroneously, I don't think you'd be using it here. Her actions went much further than that.

Oh really? Do tell, as you seem to be such an expert.

Rufus, my above post was to you, I was slow at typing!

It was in response to this:

I dont really see why not, loads of complaints might well get them to change their minds if its not 'law'

If the changes to the GRC process aren't brought in i don't think we'll be seeing Topshop or Swim England roll back their guidance, do you?

Don't worry, women will campaign, raise awareness and challenge until they do!

ecause then you'd get this weird scenario of shop staff policing changing rooms on the basis of their own stereotypical ideas of the two genders

But stereotypical ideas of the two sexes are how theyve done it for years!!

And it sometimes has its faults...ive been told im going into the wrong loo myself

I know rat

Oh, and I wouldn’t bother with still they have an agenda to derail any reasonable conversation and love to DARVO.

Yep. And I recognise them from other threads under a slightly different username.

Ereshkigal if that's what women have a problem with I do't understand why they aren't campaigning for it now!

I keep trying to point out to everyone that whether or not people can self-ID to get their GRC makes almost no fricking odds because the times when you're required to show your birth certificate are also the times when the Equality Act has exemptions!!

...and you're still left with the question of what should shops and swimming pools and toilets do instead?

But stereotypical ideas of the two sexes are how theyve done it for years!!

What on earth will we do if everyone on the first few pages get their way and we have entirely broken down these god-awful rigid gender stereotypes?

How about we all just use the facilities we feel comfortable with? Or unisex? Or... hang on, this all sounds awfully familiar.

The hate crime officer in posies interview stated that SRS doesn't involve castration. Where exactly he thinks the bollocks are if they are not removed, god only knows.

Libel isn't a criminal offence, it's a civil matter.

"And I recognise them from other threads under a slightly different username."

Yep, certainly since they clarified who they were.

If we are disagreeing between gender and sex then i dont think we are going to get anywhere rat

Ereshkigal if that's what women have a problem with I do't understand why they aren't campaigning for it now!

You missed #boycotttopshop and #manfriday then?

Rat As far as I am aware the issue is mission creep and the nature of the law I.e- self id becomes law and people who do not overtly present as their chosen gender begin to want use sex segregated spaces. The shops have two options:

1. deny these people entry and/ or ask for evidence (which they can’t actually do because it is illegal to ask for someone’s GRC)
2. give up and not question it because there is a danger they could look bad.

I think this is why so many of them are ahead of the law. There has been pressure from special interest groups and shops and businesses do not want to get into a public fight on something that has been attached onto the gay rights movement.

Everyone needs to start asking some hard questions about this and whether it is the right thing to do. Because that hasn’t happened so far. Things have just been moving along with no checks and balances. Or any critical thought.

It might be, when everyone has a look at this more carefully that the solution is not ‘don’t ask questions’ and is actually safe gender neutral spaces and sex segregation for sport, prisons, medicine and a few other things.

If we are disagreeing between gender and sex then i dont think we are going to get anywhere rat

I don't understand Rufus, I didn't think we were disagreeing between two things? I mean simply that if we just carry on as we are now and we break down rigid sterotypes of how "male" and "female" present, then no-one will be able to know whether people are in the "right" toilets for their sex anyway, so essentially we'll have "self-ID" by default!

And yet every single one of us seems to agree that those rigid stereotypes need to fuck off.

You missed #boycotttopshop and #manfriday then?

I missed the first, and have only recently (this week!) noticed the second.

But I've seen an awful lot about self-ID relating to the GRC. An awful lot, like, for yeeeeaaaars. Which, seeing as one would have about 5 million times the impact of the other seems all the wrong way round to me.

My dh should be able to wear a dress and paint his nails and wear heels and full slap if he wants to

My dd should be able to wear doc martins and baggy clothes and not wear makeup and shave her hair

They would still look like a man and a young woman

There are lots of gender non conforming men and women around...there always have been

I come from the generation of Boy George and Marilyn and men wearing more makeup than women (at least some of the lads at college did ) and i still knew what bog they should have been in

Stillscreaming I am actually familiar with the case and have read and listened to all sides. I don't need to be patronized thank you. I am aware of all the 'evidence' and will make my own judgement as I expect others to do. I don't expect we will all agree but I'm grateful to those that listen and make their own decision and not have a decision forced upon them. Or our belittled for asking questions or speaking up.

Oh really? Do tell, as you seem to be such an expert.

I can't show yin ten Tweets, they've been taken down for not abiding by community standards on Twitter.

I'd invite those of you who'd rather speculate on my former user names or accuse me of being another poster to contact MNHQ because I can't prove who I'm not and I know that none of you would be willing to take me word for it.

It would be much more productive to go back to what we were discussing than playing 'guess who?' about me.

...seems all the wrong way round to me.

Oh yeah, and it also seems like pointing the gun at the wrong person.

Why aim it where the resulting shot would be that transpeople don't get to benefit from a less onerous GRC process when it would be better pointed at the shops, pools, clubs, pubs etc. where women are actually perceived to be at risk?