to ask what *alternatives* to self ID you think would work for trans people and the rest of society?

[yetanothertranswoman]

If you are against self if, what would you like to have instead as a system that allows trans people to live their lives the best they can whilst ensuring that potential issues highlighted by self ID are minimised.

For context - I am trans. I've had HRT and surgery. It took a long time to get to surgery as the NHS appointment system takes its time. I had to attend a psychiatrist appointment even before being referred to the NHS clinics. Then I was able to get a letter from the GP to allow me to alter my 'identifiers' on my passport and driving license.

At that point I told work and was given protection under the Equality Act so I couldn't face discrimination due to being trans at work.

I got my diagnosis of transexualism after my 3rd session with the NHS psychiatrist.

I got my GRC after my surgery - it hasn't really meant much to me in real life getting this.

I am not in favour of self ID - and this thread is not about self ID. I was just wondering what people think of the current system and if they can see any alternatives - as the definition of trans varies wildly.

No offence to your mum beyond but that just shows how big the bloody brolly is

and its sad cos transwomen and men have struggled in many cases for years...and now anyone can say they are trans

I should really have put a smiley face when referring to beyonds mum

It's the numbers involved that's the biggest problem. If it were only a few thousand people who wanted to get through life without drawing much attention to themselves, it wouldn't be a problem.

But then I see Munroe, India and Paris on TV and see children transitioning. And know it's not about a few thousand adults anymore. I can't pretend I can't see what's going on because a few thousand old school transexuals are going to be upset or disadvantaged. I can't really think of a solution that will keep everyone happy and safe, but that's not my problem to sort out. My focus is on women and girls.

That’s the point really, isn’t it? The umbrella is so wide that it is basically everyone.

So all this ‘You’re hateful transphobe if you don’t support self id’ is only possible because trans people have been sidelined to open up trans rights and women’s spaces to the gender fluid and those who just fancy a dabbl in something new and topical.

This is what concerns me most really- the whole student politics, MRA, me me me flavour of the campaigning done, apparently (but not really) on behalf of trans people.

'I have yet to hear a trans woman ask for anything that would benefit a woman'

This was a quote from someone earlier.

But in the various trans threads over this past week I have read and have myself as a trans woman stated also several.

For example, that I oppose extending self identification to the issuing of a GRC. Which the OP of this thread also says as a trans woman.

I have further said that I also believe that medical and psychiatric assessment should remain as a doorway to changing legal gender to protect both the transitioner from making a mistake if they have another treatable problem for which transition is not the best option - and because this will help protect women from anyone with a sexual fetish or with predatory reasons identifiable by psychiatrists from accessing spaces legally that they might then use nefariously.

I have further suggested that physical transition - either full GRS or at least the equivalent of chemical castration - should be required for a GRC so as to ensure the protection of women from even well meaning 'men' (trans women) who are unwilling or unable to 'go the whole way' as a protection of women's spaces and feelings.

And I have also proposed looking at the already excluded spaces such as smear tests and women's refuges where opt outs are already there to perhaps extend or strengthen.

These may or may not be practical. But surely these are significant proposals and suggestions from trans women that would benefit women?

Or am I missing something?

I have been told these are the proposals of men like me imposing onto women as usual and trying to stop discussion.

But joining in the discussion to try to find an answer is not stopping the discussion. Or taking the choice of action away from you.

Everyone will here do what their conscience (and inevitably to a degree self interest or care for others they wish to protect) would dictate.

Nor is the above is imposing anything. It is offering suggestions into as debate where trans women and women do have possible common ground to strengthen the GRA and prevent self ID being legally recognised.

I understand that the equality act is a problem as that provides things that overrule the jurisdiction of the GRA.

In which case that needs addressing as well as the GRA if it is a more serious problem to bringing self ID forward.

Scrapping the GRA entirely because of understandable fears that it cannot distinguish between harmless men (as in long standing transwomen who have been around for decades without causing issues or joining activist campaigns - many now quite elderly) and harmful men may seem attractive. But would it work?

Well it would work IF it were strengthened into a properly protected gateway that meant it gave some reassurance to women.

Because if you just repeal it then you will be in the same position as now. No checks and balances and self ID happening by default with the ones most likely to abuse this self policing access and provocatively enter spaces the ones that would not have had a GRC if that existed and so could have been legally ejected if that were properly strengthened.

Whilst the ones who would be disadvantaged would be all those long term trans women who have never caused trouble and are not activists but who, being largely decent people, would do what the law now asked of them.

Potentially forcing grannies who transitioned decades ago to suddenly for the first time in many years go into a male toilet or changing room to protect women from their presence. Here being at the mercy of who knows what kind of abuse and/or attacks from the men in there who will, whether you take this view or not, regard them as elderly women invading their space.

In other words, the removal of the GRA would punish the innocent and challenge the ones you want to root out to likely plot greater revolt.

This surely is not what anybody wants? There has to be sensible common ground here we can all find a way to achieve?

No amount of therapy or surgery is automatically going to make a man look like a women. The GRC isn't magic.

If the TIM looks like a women and doesn't act inappropriately, who will know? But if they don't look like a women, how is a nine year old girl going to feel? Or a 90 year old women? You seem to be missing the point about women and girls feeling safe.

But surely these are significant proposals and suggestions from trans women that would benefit women?

Proposing to debate the spaces and procedures we already have, either because we fought for them or because only we need them, is not beneficial to women.

Refuges for women do not need to be debated. They need to be funded and men (surgically altered or not) need to stay out of them.

Smear tests do not need to be debated. Men (surgically altered or not) do not need them.

It is always women who are expected to defend and debate their existence to satisfy men.

Single sex spaces
That's what will benefit women

"grannies"?

’I have yet to hear a trans woman ask for anything that would benefit a woman'

This was a quote from someone earlier.

But in the various trans threads over this past week I have read and have myself as a trans woman stated also several.

With respect, I disagree. You are proposing methods which are looking to minimise the harm to women caused by something that you want (ie allowing men to identify as women). That is not the same as proposing something that will actually benefit women.

Anyone who puts any weight behind the nebulous "not in good faith" statements can perfectly easily Advanced Search my username themselves.

Yes, and they'd see for themselves what a disingenuous merailer you've frequently been.

Lost art, you keep saying I am missing the point, but how am I?

What am I saying that is not taking the feelings of girls and women into account?

I have said clearly I agree with protected spaces as within the GRC.

Surely access to the less protected spaces based only on appearance and passing will allow in any predatory male able to be perceived that way with ulterior motives and see women who for any reason get wrongly misgendered out of fear or distrust because of some misfortune of appearance.

I am not arguing at all about the biological women and have patiently never complained about being called a man often in the past week for what is pretty much the very first time in over 40 years.

I know the realities, but we are not talking definitions here. We are talking how we all live day to day in real life and what effect the aspired changes to the legal situation will have.

And I think we both agree that sanctioning self ID as a route into a GRC, removing any need for medical or psychiatric assessment and any pretence of permanence of transition or physical commitment is something that is not desired.

I appreciate that one idea is to repeal the GRA. Would that personally impact me? Probably not as I was a trans woman for 30 years before it existed and got on with life.

So it is not self interest here, if that is the belief. But my genuine opinion that making it stronger and preventing self ID from diluting it top nothing and trying to amend the Equality act to guard safe spaces is the approach most likely to protect women best without disenfranchising genuine trans women willing to follow the stronger guidelines required.

Fell free to disagree with me. It is my opinion only.

Finding the words is so hard because everything gets jumped on as having other meanings.

Why do we need a debate?

Because the GRC exists. And the self ID changes are being fought for.

To repeal a 14 year old act is not just going to happen without a debate. It simply won't, regardless of what you prefer or I prefer.

It will get discussed and action taken on the balance of opinion.

I would have expected a willingness to at least talk over the issues without animosity to be a reasonable thing to find on a discussion forum.

Lost Art, there are 'grannies' in that they had children pre transition and those children had children after transition and so they have only ever known that trans woman as their granny.

They likely will be told the truth when they are old enough to understand. That is usually how it was done in the past when kids were not fed information about transgender issues at primary school.

As these trans women chose NOT to do to protect these children in formative years.

Which is, I would have thought, what most women would support given there seems a strong feeling on here that kids being awash in transgender ideology from pre school is not a good idea.

Sometimes words are more than strict definitions to protect the rights of women. And I am not downplaying that I should stress. But sometimes words are what people call one another in a loving family environment using those regarded as the best fit for the circumstance. In trans families these are usually carefully considered and applied as best works in the circumstance.

I have never been married or had children by my choice as I considered it unfair to impose my transness onto anyone else.

But I am aunty to several children and they were all told when old enough as every one was born years after I transitioned.

Not one has ever called me anything else but have never been told what to say. It has been their choice.

But like most people they say what they see and react accordingly.

"Lost art, you keep saying I am missing the point, but how am I?"

Then answer my question - how would a nine year old girl feel if alone in a toilet with an adult man? Do you think she would feel safe?

Of course she would not feel safe.

But her feeling safe or not would depend entirely on her knowing she was in the presence of an adult man and not presume that the person was a woman.

And there is the problem. It depends on perception, not reality or DNA as that is never going to be a ticket of entry into the loo. And is impossible to determine by anyone, let alone a 9 year old girl.

Removing the GRA does not stop that possibility from occurring if said man was of a mind to enter and happened to be good at deception. Evil will find a way.

In other words a 'predatory male' does not need a GRA or a certificate to create this situation. And someone doing that deviously is the most serious threat.

Which is not diminishing the perception of a man by that 9 year old girl from someone presuming right of access but not looking as if they should.

If repealing the GRA prevented such all eventualities rather than primarily just removed law abiding trans women who would care enough to heed such an embargo then yes, I can agree with you.

But without a GRA it is always going to be voluntary when you are dealing with people who look, act or have the body of a woman - however biologically male they may or may not be inside.

It will be their decision where they choose to go and any of them that are likely to be an actual threat will be the most likely to push that boundary hardest especially if they are looking to create angst or anger as some might.

Making something illegal usually means the law abiding mostly comply and the not so good chaps find a way to get around it.

The real need is to keep out obvious men who would not transition and just self ID and would cause intimidation by just being there which they would presume to do with or with a GRA.

So it comes down to stopping them.

I think repealing the GRA would probably remove a lot of harmless 'men' but lead to a load of self ID ones who will cause the most depress doing something like a mass 'trespass' to make a point.

Which would be even more distressing to any child in there.

I genuinely think that the best defence around a difficult situation is a more robust GRA allied to changes to the equality act to require a GRC for acceptance within it.

That could prevent legal access to such people. But they have the option to access that law so cannot claim abuse of civil rights.

They will face a choice to get a psyche evaluation, have medical castration, seek surgery, live 2 years full time post transition and then gain the right of access.

How many do you think will choose that route?

A clever law offers a way to comply that is guarded enough to protect abuse - rather than just bans everything.

That is why prohibition never lasted. An unenforceable law usually makes things worse by attracting nefarious elements whereas a well structured law usually shuts them out.

We'd want the repeal of the GRA to be accompanied by changes to the EA in both the "gender reassignment" and "sex" characteristics and the exemptions being strengthened and in some cases made mandatory.

Given that it is on behalf of the vast majority of the population.

Exactly, Jaycee. The unpassing TIM is going to cause distress to the 9 year old girl, with or without a GRC. I'm sure no-one want to cause distress, so the unpassing TIM needs to find another solution.

I would say any changes need to strengthen gate keeping for trans people and therefore women too. More support, especially for third spaces and full transition should be free but more supported through counselling.

The issue with self id is not about who we met into our spaces it is about not being able to get predators out. How do you ask a predatory man who is behaving oddly to leave if he can say he is a woman and has a right to stay. And I don’t mean obvious odd behaviour. I suspect most places won’t want to make waves and won’t throw people out of they hide behind ‘being trans’ (but not actually).

It was me who said I have never heard a trans woman suggest anything that would benefit women
It was in relation to those saying we should work together. I'm not sure why because what trans women want harms women
It is also in relation to the likes of Lily Madigan and those who are taking womens places. The Jo Cox programme for example
And so many have been socialised male it's hard to find a womens group not headed up by trans women. They talk the loudest and are determined to get their needs met
The group then becomes all about trans issues
Just like Lily Madigan has done with the womens officer role

^And so many have been socialised male it's hard to find a womens group not headed up by trans women. They talk the loudest and are determined to get their needs met
The group then becomes all about trans issues^

I feel this is a real problem. It's happening everywhere from female centred Facebook groups to charities. They bully and intimidate women and force them to walk on eggshells. It's abusive.

1 - get rid of gender stereotypes because I'm sure that's a cause of a lot of this (not for all, I'm sure). All this 'gender neutral/fluid' stuff is such a load of shite. Who isn't gender fluid? Right now I'm wearing a man's shirt and no make up and I haven't waxed my moustache in months. Am I gender fluid now?

2 - have some unisex toilets/changing rooms etc that anyone can use. I really see that whole issue as being about people's physical being as opposed to what they 'feel'.

3 - no idea how to solve problems like prisons. I feel bad for people who 'feel' like women but would have to be in a male prison, but at the same time, I just don't think 'feeling' like a woman has any actual meaning. That's a really hard one, because especially if a mtf transsexual person has transitioned as an adult, they would still be stronger/bigger than most women and that's not really safe in my opinion.

But basically, I do think that if everyone just accepted that liking cars/dresses/make up/trousers/princess stuff/lorries are totally gender neutral activities, most people would not feel the need to transition and we'd all be way happier.

Unfortunately, never going to happen.

Don't give up. Only a few decades ago, it looked as though we were going in the right direction with what children could be interested in - this very highly gendered stuff is recent and can be undone. Support Let Toys Be Toys and keep working, and this unfortunate blip will pass.

It's a bit of a side-track, but I'm often struck in these conversations by people, often men who identify as women, talking as though women often come across such men IRL and actually think they are women. Without wishing to upset anyone who'd like to pass, I'm curious: does passing actually ever happen (in natural circumstances, not still photos)? I have never knowingly met such a person I wouldn't know within half a minute was male, IRL, or even seen one interviewed on TV. Of course, by definition, though, if they really pass I could be meeting them IRL without being aware of it.

It doesn't make any difference in principle, but it might to the feelings. If women are much better at telling who's male than men think we are, or much worse, we could have different estimates of the size of the impact of any changes.