To love the Mail and The Sun?

[YesItsADebate]

Because they are covering this and this and this? (No links to either paper, or dodgy links, just background info on a government website, Twitter and a Mumsnet thread).

The petition is one of the most important going for 51% of the UK population. I can’t believe that women are having to petition to get consulted, but that’s 2018 for you. If the Mail and the Sun are going to cover it so it gets more visibility then that’s a good thing, IMO.

If you'd like to read some "on the ground" opinions of community workers, please have a look at this:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/973852316787933184.html

It's written by community workers who have no axe to grind on women's rights or activism. They say they are seeing "well-meaning" middle class activism on trans-inclusionary language and ideology derail their grass-roots community projects, putting marginalised groups they work with on the ground into danger and depriving them of services.

I bet you anything you like some of these community workers or their service users read The Mail and The Sun.

Are they deserving of better or should we ignore them because we don't like the politics of the paper they read and the opinions they might hold on other topics? What sort of liberalism would that be?

aRespectable I'm going to have to take this one piece at a time...

Btw all parties are in favour of self ID - wake up. this isn't about the left, right, class etc it is about women losing right to not share spaces, rights etc with men
The right to not share safe or intimate spaces is protected under the Equality Act. It is not under threat. That right will remain.

any man remember , not the fully transitioned male to females
There's no requirement at present for someone to have surgery to get a GRC, so no change to that.

just any geezer could cone in to do your smear test for instance- after you requested a female.
No-one can touch your body - not even medical professionals - without your consent. No-one can just "come in to do your smear test" - unless you mean come in the room, at which point you might say "no thanks", for any reason at all, even if they just "look a bit gay", your reason is nobody's business. Might be inconvenient to get a new member of staff but frankly not an outrage.

If you said he wasn't female at all - that would be a crime as he would have equal rights as a woman
This just doesn't make sense, I as a woman don't have a right not to be called a man or it's a hate crime. That's bonkers. It's not a crime for start! In order to be a hate crime something must firts be a crime. Saying, "sorry, you look like a tranny, could i have a different nurse please", however phrased, is not going to see you banged up.

Remember he won't even have to look like he is pretending to be female, I wonder what type of male might abuse those rights (I think we all know it won't be fully transitioned m to female people)
A male would be extremely unlikely to benefit from any attempts to abuse the rights of GNC holders, even if they could get a GNC really easily, simply because the EA protects against it. And I will repeat, the EA is not changing!

Self ID - read up on their belief : gender is an intellectual choice, biological sex you were born is irrelevant. If you say you're female: you are.
No-one's forcing anyone to this belief, they'e just saying if someone happens to believe it and believe it applies to them they get to live their life accordingly. But only so far as it does not risk other people - hence the EA exemptions.

Sounds science fiction.but it is really what parties are talking about
They are not talking about mandating belief and punishing thought crimes. But it looks like you are?

Can you see why we want you to sign the petition to have women's voices on potential pitfalls in this little game of dress up?
I would be very grateful if someone in the government with some authority would communicate with women on this, absolutely.

YANBU to read what you like. I try to read a range of papers as often the truth lies somewhere between them all. Personally I don't like most of what the mail and the sun have to say, but know your enemy, right??

However, I DO enjoy the sun headline puns sometimes if I see someone reading it on the tube/train. Years ago a friend of mine did freelance journalism for the sun and she said that the big front page headlines were mostly written by a pair of old men who were like statler and Waldorf from the muppets - spent most of their day in the pub, chucked out a brilliant headline, and went home . No idea if it's still like that; probably not.

Roly: I'm afraid it is you that is wrong - if any man becomes a woman with equal legal rights - by saying they feel it is their correct gender - this is the reality.

This is what activists are pushing for.

Women are best placed to point out potential pitfalls in self ID and how it affects THEM and their children.

self ID is dangerous and should not happen for so many reasons. We all know rights are already being abused in prisons - see Truscum post above and the partial truth in reporting.

I know you analyse every word -of everyone's posts whilst failing spectacularly to see bigger picture (you won't know what im talking about btw as you're stuck on the floor picking up crumbs to support your views) perhaps look over there at the the hills?).

Anyway, no disrespect Roly your view is your view - but I'll leave you to It.

Hmm, I do think I rather am seeing the bigger picture... but I appreciate that of course I would think that.

You're of course entitled to your view as well, but that is why I pick up on the specifics! How can we break down the pitfalls in our views if we don't debate our assertions?

Anyway, this probably isn't that thread :)

Safe to say I hate the Sun and The Mail!

@RatRolyPoly I think you are absolutely correct to say that the position at the moment will be unaffected in law, because in practice no one needs a GRC for very much at all. Which is why this whole thing is so baffling ... why the vicious, unprecedented refusal to even air the issues sensibly and in a civilised fashion, like a democracy should. What are the trans lobbyists afraid of?

They're afraid that all the arguments that @aRespectableBureaudeChange has brought up will introduce reasonable doubt as to whether this change is as minor as it is being presented - that actually the general public and policymakers will see that it creates an "open door" situation to abolishing sex segregation entirely.

And they don't want that. As the ultimate agenda is to get rid of all sex segregation (and thus women's protected status under the Equalities Act).

All of this is in my opinion, of course - perhaps I am wrong about a different agenda. But both you and I are definitely in agreement about the need for open honest debate.

They're horrible shitrags, but if they're what you feel happy reading, have at it.

How many different threads are we going to have hawking this same petition, I wonder?

I enjoy The Spectator. The Times are too liberal sometimes but it's aimed at section of the right-wing that wants to know what the left-wing is thinking.

The Daily Mail is useful simply for its comments section. The Sun has never been useful.

@WhalesOfYore Racism is also a major issue too.

If you look at Jews, Indians and East Asians, they are right-wing voters in Western Europe and the Commonwealth Realms, and there were in the US too until the Democrats went hyper socially liberal.

The right-wing can support minority groups against the racism of the left-wing.

How many different threads are we going to have hawking this same petition, I wonder?

Loads!

Don't know if this has been answered but when are the papers printing these articles?

Also how long does it take for an MP to contact you back? 😂 I know the big knobs have mad Russian spies to contend with but my local MP was a the college yesterday ? Knew I should of got him when I saw him in the street last week

The sun crashes my computer

But the petition doesn't. Have signed. Love the map.

@drinkswine
Don't know if this has been answered but when are the papers printing these articles?

One of the papers is the Mail on Sunday, so I’m guessing Sunday for them

But no idea about the Sun, I’m afraid. Soon, I hope. With prominent political party leaders saying things publicly like “biology is outdated” you’d hope there’d be a good enough reason to write ...

YANBU OP, and hats off to the Mail and the Sun for reporting this.

I read the Guardian and the Mail (also Private Eye and Financial Times from time to time). They are both as bad as each other in their bias and in pushing their own agendas, just in opposite directions. At least by reading both I get both sides of the biased coin and can try to pick out the truth from the tangle of lies.

BTW as a reader of both, it does make me chuckle when Guardianistas look down their noses at Mail readers. Both publications are extremely biased and to rely on either exclusively would warp your world view in line with their agendas.

Hitler was a vegetarian. It doesn't make the rest of what he did ok.

Mail and Sun are just whipping up hysteria and taking advantage of people who are
a) ignorant and uneducated and believe whatever they are told
and
b) just want to jump on any bandwagon that mean they get to moan about another section of society.

Divide and rule again.

It's not the trans people who are causing the problems of the domestic abuse victims, homeless, and jobless. It's the rich right wing people in this country who refuse to put in place the measures needed to educate and look after the disadvantaged people in our society. The mail and sun aim to direct hate towards a minority group, be it foreigners, trans people or whatever group they pick this week, to distract people from the facts.

Ignorant and believe what they're told - you mean like the left politicians believing biology is wrong and gender is choice is more important? You mean the conservatives supporting self ID?

sound bit silly dismissing the whole readership as ignorant - sounds a rather ill informed 'ignorant' view to me.

But hey ho

Also how long does it take for an MP to contact you back?

I wrote to mine about self-ID last year - It took him a month to reply and then he just sent a generic letter which didn't actually respond to anything I'd said in my letter. Then in January this year, I've wrote to him about a different (non-trans-related) issue and two months later have still had no response whatsoever. I think he may put me on his terf list and blocked me!

The petition is one of the most important going for 51% of the UK population.

I don't agree with this. Yes women's rights will be more impacted by self ID (because single sex protections are mainly for females), but it is potentially a profound change to society in general.

At the moment this is discussed in the media as if it's a narrow issue between trans activists and radical feminists. A broader discussion would be welcome.

YANBU.

I have also found myself reading and agreeing with articles in the Morning Star. (And whatever you think about biology. I think we can agree that the Daily Mail and the Morning Star are strange bedfellows)

Divide and conquer.

In less than 24hrs I've been blocked by both Lilly with a willy and terfblocker. I feel honoured.

Hat trick heather peto , who I have never tweeted has blocked me!

This petition is at 5,395 - I’m hoping it gets past 5,400 before midnight. Arbitrary, but would be pleasing.

Thank you! 5,400 now with 20 minutes to go

I read the dailymail just because it’s such an easy website to use!