To love the Mail and The Sun?

[YesItsADebate]

Because they are covering this and this and this? (No links to either paper, or dodgy links, just background info on a government website, Twitter and a Mumsnet thread).

The petition is one of the most important going for 51% of the UK population. I can’t believe that women are having to petition to get consulted, but that’s 2018 for you. If the Mail and the Sun are going to cover it so it gets more visibility then that’s a good thing, IMO.

Well I will give them a chance! My enemy's enemy is my friend.

Not that they're my enemies at all. Anyone willing to stand up against these dangerous lies being told to our children has my love right now!

I am getting seriously worried about the scary language coming from politicians that being a woman is in fact simply a state of mind and biology is redundant nonsense.

Our children are being indoctrinated into this belief - whilst you think they are talking about music etc - they are worrying about gender identity and told they're in the wrong body based on rigid stereotypes - that is what they are all talking about.

Please take a look and sign : petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

well I never, who'd have thought it?

I feel completely let down by what I would have once considered 'my' kind of press e.g. the Guardian (and the gay press). Not because they are presenting opinions that I disagree with - and not even that they aren't representing the anti-self-ID viewpoint (although I prefer a paper to present a variety of opinions) but because of the deliberate misinformation.

E.g. The Independent writing that the rapist Martin Ponting/Jessica Winfield (who was moved to a women's prison but then had to be segregated after sexually harassing the women) has undergone 'gender reassignment surgery' knowing that most readers will think that means they have had their penis removed (they haven't).

Or the Observer writing about Gary/Marie Dean going on hunger strike to get moved to a women's prison and saying that they were a burglar - failing to mention that they were also a dangerous sex offender who presented a serious risk to women.

This isn't just a different opinion. This is deliberate misrepresentation to push an agenda. If they think that a male sex offender with a penis should be housed with female prisoners they should at least be upfront about that and not deliberately mislead their readers.

I certainly don't love either of those publications but won't condemn you as being unreasonable for doing so (even if only because they have reported on "The Issue that Shall Not be Named").
But I will join you in saying that I am relieved that an issue of such importance is at last being picked up by the mainstream press. Hopefully we will get to a point that women will not be risking their jobs by simply voicing concerns one example thread but this comes up everywhere.

who on earth thinks that is ok?

that reply was to bloody freezing.

Yanbu you can read anything you want.

Does it not give you pause for thought that you are on the same side of the argument as those abominable shitrags? No little moment of doubt...no 'perhaps I shouldn't be so proud of my transphobia', that kind of thing?

HotCrossBun12

From my experience and what I've heard from other women, it is something many of us have really thought about a lot. I - and a lot of others - started off on the other side of the argument, having a knee-jerk reaction that that was the right side to be on, dismissing women who raised concerns as bigots and not really listening to what they were saying.

Most - although by no means all - of the women who are opposing self-ID seem to be on the left and very liberal and I have seen people really wrestle with this, really questioning themselves over their viewpoint on this - and that is a good thing rather than just automatically assuming you are in the right.

In many ways, it's a lot easier to be close-minded to what women are saying, to ignore the contradictions and the problems raised by the transactivist ideology (particularly if you are on the left or - like me - part of the LGB community) but, when you actually get away from that knee-jerk reaction, the 'no debate' and the 'transwomen are women' mantra, there are real issues of concern here that need to be discussed.

The other thing is, regardless of what position you have on an issue, it is essential in a democratic society that changes to the law can be openly discussed and debated. I've been one of the people pushing for progressive change on other issues (mainly on LGB rights issues) over the years but I would never say that other voices should be silenced. I haven't had to try to silence opposition and call for no debate because I could defend my position. And regardless of the side you are on, debate is essential to iron out any unforeseen problems with legislation - A lack of open debate and consideration of the evidence will lead to bad law.

The level of silencing, the attacks on women simply trying to meet to discuss how proposed changes to the law would affect them and now the police planning to being 'test cases' to silence women is bloody terrifying. When seasoned activists and established politicians are saying they have never seen anything like it, surely you have to question what is going on?

Excellent post - bloody freezing - well said.

@MrsFogi

The issue that shall not be named

Genius

@BloodyFreezing

Great post

Can I ask when this is to be debated in parliament? I tried googling but all it comes up with are articles stating how great it is and women’s fears are found less

YANBU!

I have found myself with some strange bedfellows on this, but so really hate the quite modern idea that you just only agree with people who agree with you on everything else. It requires no thought, just a ‘Oh well if he says that then it must be right’ or vice versa.

I was a lifelong labour voter, extremely liberal, the left wing press were my go to’s for news (though I did read the times for some balance too)

I’ve found myself hounded out of my local party, unable to stomach the guardian etc. because of the blatant lies they are spreading on stories involving anything in this, lies of omission are still lies.

They advocated that man with a penis should be placed in a woman’s prison and mentioned he was a burglar. Forgot the part where he was a cross dressing burglar who would break into the homes of young teenage girls and masturbate in to their underwear.

Gives the story a bit of a different slant to it when he is the one demanding access to young vulnerable women doesn’t it?

Yes, the double-think on this issue, or the just plain lack of thinking by liberal publications (including the BBC) is frightening. Critical thinking is dying in this country. Free speech is also under threat. Ironically, in the age of social media.

I fo find it interesting how half of the Guardians readership’s comments in the Comment is Free section are slagging off the articles. Never used to be that way say just 5 years ago. Referencing the sex predator burglar, I thought someone on here was being out of order calling him a pervert and thought just because he liked to wear women’s clothes did not make him a pervert and it was an overly harsh stance to take. That was when I just read The Guardian link which like others have said, left out the part where he burgled and broke into children’s rooms and masturbated into their underwear. I don’t know why people hold up The Guardian as some sort of moral elite when they are just as “bad” as the Daily Mail, just going the other way. Both have agendas to push as does any media outlet. Channel 4 news presents itself as left wing but at least it is actually factual with the truth, will invite guests on with opposing views and not try and shut either side up and does very good investigating on its Dispatches series. I think they are the most credible source now tbh.

Private Eye is also good on this topic.

I don't think you can dismiss a paper as being shit, poorly researched etc, and then when it agrees with you decide that it's suddenly full of journalistic integrity. The dislike of the trans issue is based on their same hateful views as they have towards immigrants/gay people /race and colour and so on.

I don't think you can dismiss a paper as being shit, poorly researched etc, and then when it agrees with you decide that it's suddenly full of journalistic integrity. The dislike of the trans issue is based on their same hateful views as they have towards immigrants/gay people /race and colour and so on.

@GunnyHighway Great post

I don’t like pretty much any of the press or political parties any more.

I do like individual journalists and politicians.

The Guardian is/was my paper. Labour is/was my party.

I can’t say I’m going to go out and buy The Sun and the Mail instead.

But I am pleased that it’s being covered.

Women are being threatened and silenced.

Regardless of where you fall on trans issues - and it’s a lot more complex and nuanced for most people than the black-and-white nature of the debate would seem to suggest at the moment - how can it be OK with anyone of whatever sex or gender that death threats and violence are the response to people mentioning that biology determines sex?

Just like the papers, there’s a spectrum of opinion. The Sun and The Mail often push some appalling views, imo, but they also do useful work amongst that.

It’s more nuanced than just Good/Bad.

Don’t sign if you don’t wish to, but please do read the petition wording- it’s just calling for an open debate on women’s rights:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Can I ask when this is to be debated in parliament? I tried googling but all it comes up with are articles stating how great it is and women’s fears are found less

It will be going through the Scottish Parliament first (they've already had a consultation on it). The UK government have said they are going to wait for the outcome of Women's Aid's review of whether males should be able to self-identify as women to work in women-only domestic abuse refuges (see www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3160220-to-write-to-Women-s-Aid-and-ask-you-to-do-the-same-if-you-value-their-services ) before they proceed.

There's a petition to ask the UK government to consult women on the proposals to change the law: petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

When the Women and Equalities Committee looked at this, they only invited trans groups to speak to them, not women's groups and took everything they said at face value - including making an official recommendation based on something that then turned out not to be true! (See the government's response to recommendation 11: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/535764/Government_Response_to_the_Women_and_Equalities_Committee_Report_on_Transgender_Equality.pdf )

It's odd people can't see their own prejudice in thinking that anyone writing at one of these papers can only be some sort of phobic. Irony or can't they think expansively? If that isn't resonating with you: it makes you a phobic!!!!! oh irony.

See Truscum's excellent post above - people aren't 'good' or 'bad' the left is not inherently good on everything because it is it is kind in others.

Same with the right or anyone for that matter. People need to wake up.

This issue is about free speech and biology; protecting fully transitioned people from the activists who have hijacked for political reasons and potentially damaging mutually respectful relationship between women and fully transitioned people that has existed for years.

Don't forget to activate your vote , won't count until you've clicked your email (might go to junk) after you've pressed vote :
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

How many times in history have people turned a blind eye to people doing evil because it furthered their own purposes? We should learn from the past that it doesn't end well.

I agree with this, and the other sentiments of the same on this thread.

Btw all parties are in favour of self ID - wake up. this isn't about the left, right, class etc it is about women losing right to not share spaces, rights etc with men - any man remember , not the fully transitioned male to females - just any geezer could cone in to do your smear test for instance- after you requested a female.

If you said he wasn't female at all - that would be a crime as he would have equal rights as a woman. Remember he won't even have to look like he is pretending to be female, I wonder what type of male might abuse those rights (I think we all know it won't be fully transitioned m to female people)

Self ID - read up on their belief : gender is an intellectual choice, biological sex you were born is irrelevant. If you say you're female: you are.

Sounds science fiction.but it is really what parties are talking about .

Can you see why we want you to sign the petition to have women's voices on potential pitfalls in this little game of dress up?