To genuinely wonder how or why anyone believes in God?

[ChaosNeverRains]

Genuine question.

I was until fairly recently I think probably agnostic rather than anything else, having been brought up in a very church oriented school where the emphasis was all on sin and retribution and the need to worship this higher being and that if you lived every day then it was through God’s will - you get the picture. Until recently though I was prepared to believe that perhaps there was a higher being out there somewhere, and even now I can see that some could believe that there is a higher being out there or that there was at some point.

But what I don’t understand is why people seem to believe that there is a God who looks over them individually when everything points to that not being the case. People talk about the power of prayer when actually no such power exists. The man dying of cancer is no more or less likely to die if you prayed for him than if you didn’t. I know of some very devout Christians who have fallen victim to the most horrific illnesses and where the church have genuinely believed that praying for them means God will heal them, which of course he hasn’t. But when they die those same people are thought to be up there eternally worshipping the lord. Why?

I can see that a belief in God might somehow make people feel comforted that this isn’t the only life we will have, but what I can’t see is that a God who allows the amount of bad and suffering that goes on in the world, even on an individual level should be so worshipped. If a father treated his children in the way that the supposed Heavenly Father treats his, no-one would want anything to do with him. Yet worshippers of a God go to all and any lengths to ensure that they continue to do things in the name of the father and to not upset him for fear of the retribution they will receive.

I’m not one for dismissing belief as believing in the fairies and what-not (with the possible exception of the dinosaur deniers,) but I am becoming more and more curious as to how it is that people can believe in this individual God and actually believe that it is true when there is no evidence to suggest anything of the sort.

PS: I am talking about any and all religion not just one. My thought process being that if there were one God it would be the same God whether you are Christian muslim or Jewish but that the scriptures are defined by humans to make for the individual religions.

I think Christianity is particularly illogical, maybe because there are so many different varieties and the nature of the ancient manuscripts. However I honestly think the UK without Christianity would be really sad , all that culture and history lost and replaced with boring atheism.

Thanks, SundayGirls - that's the sort of thing I was wondering about

When some are said to be "joining" only for the sake of a school place I guess part of me can't blame them, but it seems a pretty grim way of going about things

And an "attendance book" with stamps in?? Oh dear ...

My sil ran the post mass breakfast at their church for 9 years. Her last one was the last Sunday her youngest child was in Year 6.......

It's a very popular and oversubscribed school with very limited places Puzzled hence the attendance stamps . Seems fairer than someone just saying on the application form they are CofE At least the children get taken to church (it's not just the parents attending on their behalf).

“It's a very popular and oversubscribed school with very limited places Puzzled hence the attendance stamps smile. Seems fairer than someone just saying on the application form they are CofE At least the children get taken to church (it's not just the parents attending on their behalf).”

I’m guessing it has very good results and a very low %age of children attracting pupil premium money.........

This is one of reasons why school performance can be very misleading.
A popular oversubscribed school can start to cherry pick (within reason) and have a higher standard of intake.

There (when last I checked) figures within schools that try to measure the improvement between the initial intake and the output (how much they improved) - so a really good school could take in very low grade kids and turn them into average grade ones (not easy), whilst a so called high performing school can take in high grade kids, and churn out highgrade kids, and parents think it's an 'amazing' school when it's not.

When I say 'high grade' or 'low grade' kids, I'm talking about kids who are socially or financially advantaged and more likely to have encouraging parents who'll do homework with them vs kids whose parents really don't care and will certainly not add to their children's education (at least not academically!)

It becomes self-fulling in the end. These schools get good results, and thus attract yet more advantaged kids, whilst the other school keeps getting the castoffs.

Particularly when coupled, as it often is, with claims of "Christian bashing"-which appears to mean anything but absulute acceptance.
Its wrong to bash any religion, but if a religion is taking a bashing it's fair to point it out. Any other religion receiving the same would probably be pulled. People should be reminded that Christians have the right to feel offended the same as other religions so often do.

I think there's a difference between Christian bashing (criticism of the person) vs Christianity bashing (criticism of the religion).

Also 'bashing' to my mind makes me imagine unfounded mocking / bullying type behaviour, but that's just my interpretation. I'm not keen on the word 'bashing' at all.

One of the nice things about this thread is that it's been very civil, despite disagreements, with a fairly varied range of views. As to be somewhat expected, it's been rather Christianity centric, but that's not a targetted religion, just what most of us have experience of (believer and nonbeliever alike).

It would be interesting to get the views of other religious people, or from nonbelievers who live in a predominantly Muslim, or Hindu culture etc.

Yes i don't understand why Christianity was targeted, the Op wasn't asking about Christianity was she. The thread went the way most religious threads go, the majority coming on being atheist. The only times arguments occur is when people state their beliefs in God. Atheists don't like to accept it.

Christianity wasn't targetted. Most of us are from the UK or US, and Christianity is the overwhelming religion we've come into contact with or have fair knowledge of. It's inevitable that the examples people give are about Christianity.

Most of us will remember Bible stories, or have been into a church, but few will have read the Quran or visited a mosque etc.

Honestly, I really don't think Christianity is deliberately being picked out.

I think most here accept your beliefs in God, but question how to came to such beliefs and want to understand what evidence brought you to believe. The struggle happens when an atheist is looking for tangible evidence, and a Christian tends to see intangible evidence.

"Any other religion receiving the same would probably be pulled."

Can you give an example of what you mean?

Surely atheists know that faith can't be explained. Nothing can be proven. There shouldnt be any reason to argue about it. It doesn't happen in real life, most people i know have no idea of my beliefs nor i of theirs. But i also know atheists who aren't remotely bothered by my beliefs. Must be a mumsnet thing.

I half agree that people are looking for you to give some evidence that they already know you can never give. But the other half of me thinks people are just inquisitive and want to at least understand the emotional connections with a religion. How it 'feels' if you will. Again, that's such a difficult thing to describe to anybody, but it doesn't stop people asking!

Don't be disheartened or discouraged from trying to explain as best you can. It might seem that we're all out to get you (some might be!), but I think the majority are not.

Can you give an example of what you mean?
It was quite clear what i meant. The thread wasn't about Christianity but it very soon seemed to be assumed by many that it was. There was loads of criticism about the faith, Christian entitlement, ridicule etc. If the same had been aimed at any other religion it would have been reported for being "anti" or racist or whatever and have been quickly taken down.

Logicalmum- please can you give an example of the “bashing” that wold have been pulled if it had been about any faith but Christianity?

I think that's a little unfair. I really don't think anybody chose Christianity for any other reason that we're most au fait with that, so that's why it gets brought up.

You might have a point about other religions, particularly Islam, but that would most likely be picked up by moderators who might err on the cautious side towards potential Islamophobia and less so about anti-Christian sentiment.

Hand on heart, I've not read a single message on this thread that came across as anti-Christian. A few might be a little dismissive, but not 'anti'.

Of course, that's just my opinion.

I do hope you keep posting and sharing - and I apologise if anything I've said had offended. I really don't like the idea of other posters feeling there is some 'anti' sentiment just because someone has a different experience or viewpoint.

For the millionth time, if any Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Jedis want to come and talk about how THEY feel and why THEY have faith that would be amazing.
However the people commenting are Christian and mainly bought up in a Christian environment (uk) so rather than asking you to explain why you have faith as a Muslim is pretty damn pointless.
Nobody has ‘bashed’ anybody and people have asked questions due to genuinely wanting to understand. I have a few Christian friends and I’m always asking them questions if we debate things, they’re strong in their faith and I’m strong in my lack of it but it’s interesting all the same

Hear hear!

And I never say anything about Christianity that I would not say about any other faith.

Except the things I have to say about Christian privilege. And that is because the only religion that actually has privilege in the UK is Christianity.

I agree to some extent that people are more hesitant to criticise islam and other faiths.

But the christian victimhood is a tad much. I don't see it, except for political correctness.

I think belief in god is essential- it's a mark of all civilized societies.
I believe in god given rights, right to life, respect and human dignity. Without belief in god given rights, humans are dependant on the rights the government will afford them- such as the tyrants of past, Stalin, mao, etc. True freedom is based on belief in god, if there is no god a dictator will fill the space.

Religion teaches self restraint, you can't just behave how you want all the time. Sometimes you have to put others first. No matter how much you might want to do something, you have to say no- because ultimatley will lead you or others to harm- avoiding temptations. A lot of people don't like limitations on their behaviour- they call it oppressive- but behaviour must be restrained in some areas other wise it's destructive.

It teaches introspection. The point in my life where i realised I am not as good as I thought I was. Taking a long hard look at yourself and realising this- repenting. Ie how many of you wouldn't think twice about booking an expensive holiday, fancy resteraunt- then ask how much do you give to charity? How much do you help those less fortunate. This was a wake up call for me.

Religion makes you believe that there is something "more" than yourself- i realise it's not all about me- it's about service to others, fulfilment in relationships. Do unto others as you would yourself.
I think this is why a lot of people are so unhappy in this modern world- they look inward, I'm unhappy- it's something about me- they seek to change themselves, engage in hedonism. You see it in the increase in depression, self harm and destructive behaviours. I see a lot of nihilism or extreme vanity. Searching for happiness inside doesn't work, it's empty, you won't find it. If you feel like something is missing in your life- try god.

Christians are the most persecuted group world wide

The Christians I know (born again ones) are great people, and we always have debates too. They know my views and I know their's and yet we still enjoy the discussions time and time again. However, the further I look into the 'collective' church, the worse things get for me. There's a very polite but egocentric hierarchy in many churches (the ones I've come across) and the higher up you go, the further removed from God it seems to be.

Religion is interesting and it's a shame, I feel, that political correctness obstructs open conversation for fear of offending.