AIBU to think Mumsnet need to revise their talk guidelines?

[abeautifulmess]

I have reported a number of threads recently and the mumsnet response has been 'we don't allow posts that break our talk guidelines' and nothing has been done when the whole thread has been attacking a particular (and vulnerable) group.

AIBU to question these guidelines and how they are applied?

@lovesagin this was not what this thread was asking for. I am assuming that you think the guidelines are applied fairly. Thank you for your responses but I feel as if you are being unnecessarily passive aggressive

misgendering = forcing someone to collude in a lie
dead naming = forcing someone to collude in a lie

I will not be thought policed.

Where are all these mysterious examples of Transphobia? Genuine question, I dont read all of the threads, because I have a life! But those which I have participated in have displayed no such behaviour in my opinion. Sometimes I see deleted posts by MNHQ, so maybe those are what some of you refer to, but then again, we have poo-trolls, period-trolls, and just trolls in general on MN, so I guess the odd trolly bigoted post (if they even existed) is going to slip through occasionally? MNHQ however do a good job of not letting posts like that stand, so I dont see the problem with the threads?

I personally dont misgender as I wouldnt want to upset another human being (unless that human has a nasty history of sexual assault etc) , however, I certainly cant argue with the logical reasons for others doing so?

Trans people participate regularly on the threads too, so if MNHQ close off the debate, where do they go to discuss their own related concerns?

And yet I'm still to read an 'anti-trans' thread.

I've seen concerned posters discussing the 'nu-trans' ideology, medicalisation of children, gender dysmorphia no longer meaning 'trans', the potential removal of protections for women etc.

Am I supposed to be offended by people having critical reasoning abilities?

And why do these posters who are so offended on my behalf never acknowledge me or the other trans posters that use these boards?

And can unfailingly never link to a single post and point it out as transphobic or 'anti-trans'.

I don't really have an opinion on whether they are applied fairly tbh.

Discussions go off on a tangent all the time, I picked upon quite a lot of posters, you included saying that whole threads are transphobic. As this does the discussion zero favours I'd be happy to see them disappear into the ether and I thought you and the other posters would too?

Sincere apologies if you feel that is PA.

Yes, YABU OP - you are just trying to shut down reasonable and vital discussion on sn important matter. And your snippy come back to lovesagin is ironic, since your whole position in asking this is passive aggressive.

@truscum perhaps they are offended on their own behalf

I have seen lots of posts stating that men are not, and never will be, women when they have a pair of balls and a cock. That is completely correct

Small concessions to the lies, whether accidental or intentional, are something that really muddies the waters on this topic. Be clear - a man cannot become a woman. No matter what he does to his genitals.

Well said Truscum

Exactly what I was trying to get at in my above post!

I don't like it when people call me the wrong surname, or use chauvinistic language but it is not and should not be illegal.

Can you imagine if sending letters to "Mr and Mrs Bob Boberson" was illigal? It's so strange the way I'm still fighting to be called Ms but a group who are apparently so small we don't even need to worry have got everyone scared of misgendering them.

Abeutifulness No. I do NOT think that the guidelines are being applied to all issues in the same way.

I believe that MN has taken the decision to allow women to have a safe place in which to discuss TRAs (I've never posted that before, TRA, it feel as though I have overstepped my own line). I believe that we, the women and trans women, men and trans men, who post here want and need such a place.

I don't believe any posts or threads should be deleted because they are impolite. Nor do I really believe that mis gendering or the, rather oddly labelled, 'dead naming' are always done with malice. Some yes, all, no!

I don't believe that anything should change.

I do believe you have the right to continue to object. But not to have your voice listened to any more than any one elses.

And I hope MN continue treading the fine line they currently are - and that they will do so on any future issue like it!

What I'm asking is whether people feel that all groups are treated the same in terms of how the talk guidelines are applied. It seems that you feel as if they are and so thank you for answering the question.

Actually I don't.

I think feminist posters are deleted, censored, banned and suspended for doing nothing more antagonistic than being truthful. Far more than other posters are. I think these women are held to a different standard and have to carefully moderate their language to tread the fine line between being truthful and being compelled to say untrue things.

And I've noticed MNHQ being a little less active with the ban hammer recently, for which I am very grateful. But if your reported posts are not deemed by MNHQ to be a personal attack, then they likely aren't.

And I have little respect for people who actively try to censor women who refuse to use female pronouns for a male, or who genuinely believe that it is important not to rewrite history by denying the actual original identity of a public person.

This is what a difference of opinion is.
You saying "it is wrong to call this male person he"
Me saying "it is wrong to call this male person she"

And we debate our positions in good faith.

I disagree with you earnestly, I think it is damaging to women to play along with a falsehood, and I detest the pressure to make women lie about their own existence and pretend they accept the false idea that a male can be female.

The difference is that you will not tolerate the existence of my opinion and you want it framed as hate or intolerance, and you want it deleted.

BUT I want you to be able to speak your opinion.

I have never reported anyone for disagreeing with me.
I have never reframed a refusal to comply with my linguistic demands as an attack.
I don't think I've demanded people use their language any particular way.

So if I'm antagonistic, it's because I think these attempts to report and have deleted the completely honest and hateLESS opinions by women, are wrong and don't belong in a nation of free exchange of ideas.

It's so odd, it always happens, a very small number of people say threads, entire threads, are transphobic,but can't give examples

I don't think whole threads are transphobic but there certainly are posters who are transphobic and I think it's fair to report those kind of posts. On a side note, I think the trans issue has seemingly overtaken all other feminist issues on mn and I find that disappointing.

Though you do have a point, OP. I get seriously pissed off when I’m called cis. Really fucks me off, because I’m a woman, but I don’t want those posts deleted because they open discussion.

@spring I wasn't trying to shut down any debate at all. Asking whether the guidelines are applied fairly doesn't mean that anyone is stopped from saying anything - just that all posts are judged by the same talk standards. I also wasn't trying to be snippy to Lovesagin. I was genuinely interested in the general question of my original post and when someone asked for an example of a group 'trans' was what came to mind. I have since said that I could have worded the OP better, but didn't want to delete or ask for a title change as people were well in to the discussion.

perhaps they are offended on their own behalf Say what now?!?!

Patronising, virtue signalling, or what?

If those who object are trans themselves could they not say so? As Truscum and others have said, they have not experienced any personal attacks having done so.

If those who object are TRAs (twice in one thread) then they are simply continuing their efforts to keep women quiet.

If neither then I would wonder why they are angry / disapproving / whatever!

It's ok op, it's an emotive subject as the ramifications of self id spread across womens rights, religion, medical research, statistics........it's huge.

BUT transphobia has no place in the debate.

Seriously, which threads sparked this one off, I'll report my arse off to get them gone, they don't help at all, you don't want them here, I don't want them here, no one wants them here. Let's get rid of them.

@barrackerbarmer thanks for your reply. I don't know if we would even disagree - I haven't really said much here about what I think. I am sorry that this has come across as an attempt at censorship or trying to devalue certain people or their opinions

I don't report much so can't really say how mn handle it. Can't say I've seen loads of transphobic posts either though I see many people saying there are transphobic posts littering mn. Maybe a pp mentioned, mnhq could state a reason why a pay is deleted might help make it more visible.
...
To the pp saying that the feminism boards have been taken over by self-id discussion. Are your really surprised? Self-id removes hard fought for protections, changes the meaning of woman/female and even the language we use to discuss ourselves, how much more fundamental to feminism can you get?

@curious and Truscum that was a short response trying to keep up with a fast moving thread (fast by my standards at least). What I meant was maybe people were thinking about themselves and not trying to speak for someone else

@itsuaddict I am trying carefully to choose my words as I want to hear what people think and don't want to make this about my view on trans and wasn't trying to be disingenuous. Sorry

Itsuaddict - That is one of the most disingenuous sentences I have ever read on this forum.

^this

OP you really didn't have trans in mind when you posted? Really?

The acronym LOL is overused but I genuinely did laugh out loud op when you accused others of being passive aggressive. But the scary thing is, you are probably 100 % sincere.
People can’t think anymore. This is the real problem.

I want to hear what people think I replied to your original question, in some detail, just up there . Do you want to discuss it?