AIBU to think Mumsnet need to revise their talk guidelines?

[abeautifulmess]

I have reported a number of threads recently and the mumsnet response has been 'we don't allow posts that break our talk guidelines' and nothing has been done when the whole thread has been attacking a particular (and vulnerable) group.

AIBU to question these guidelines and how they are applied?

How do you propose MN legislate against a "pervasive feeling" though? Other than by shutting down all debate on self-ID, which I'm sure we all agree would be outrageously stupid.

Questioning dogma is not an attack.

I completely agree! I've reported several posts for deliberate passive aggressive misgendering before and they have been deleted but there are some posts where as PP have said it's difficult for MNHQ to determine wether it's questioning or attacking

TIM trans identifying male

I don't like censorship.

Spice can you elaborate on 'misgendering' please?

mean more a pervasive anti trans feeling

You want MN to become the thought police?

Hannah, Abi etc - which threads are the transphobic ones? I'll help report. Transphobic is awful and has no place in 2018 and undermines women's and trans identified people's genuine concerns.

Thanks in advance.

anti trans feeling

• but you want to moderate people's feelings?

doesn't move discussion on

• but you report and want to delete threads you don't like.

Join the discussion if you feel your arguments are valid.
Debate like an adult, engage and listen.
Don't whine that people who disagree with you are meanies and haterz who should be censored.
If your argument has merit it will stand up to scrutiny.

This isn't a creche, it's a talk forum for adults.

i was wondering whether other people felt that the talk guidelines were applied fairly across threads. I do report when I think I need to

I think there are applied across the boards

I am someone who reports frequently even if i have to preface my report by saying im not sure

Sometimes is deleted and sometimes its not

What you mean is you are trying to shut women up from voicing there important concerns about what is currently happening with TRA'S?

Under a different username I reported a thread containing multiple examples of transphobia, misgendering and dead-naming. MNHQ requested that I report every single one. The thread was 25 pages long and I got to page 11 before I realised that transphobia on MN isn't just accepted, it's condoned by MNHQ.

I think lots of posters genuinely want to discuss the issues of self ID but there are bigots who have jumped on to this and use it as an excuse to have a go at everyone who is trasnsgender. People on here will happily misgender any trans person and if you’re only issue is self ID then why misgender everyone?

@barrackerbarmer it is difficult to reply to your messages as they feel so deliberately antagonistic. If you read through all my posts on this thread, I hope it would be pretty clear that I am not suggesting censorship or saying that I don't want to debate. What I'm asking is whether people feel that all groups are treated the same in terms of how the talk guidelines are applied. It seems that you feel as if they are and so thank you for answering the question.

I for one am hugely grateful to Mumsnet for allowing interesting exploration of the Trans/Women's debate - especially about the impact of Self Identification.

It is something I was totally unaware of before finding it on Mumsnet... and I totally agree that this is something that shouldn't be rushed through without time to discuss unintended consequences and risk assessing.... Part of that is happening on here with people exploring what the key issues are, moving their thinking forward in a supportive atmosphere

I have real confidence in Mumsnet for appropriately closing down threads or deleting posts and protecting us all to explore ideas - or even just chat and laugh - in a safe space. Thank you Mumsnet!

There's a difference thought between having a GRC and self-ID. Can we not discuss that? I think that many posters, like me, start from that understanding.

It gets tiresome, and starts to feel like virtue signalling, to repeat that I have trans friends and colleagues (both genders). I don't hate them, am not scared of them and am generally supportive of their quest for medication, surgery and legal recognition. I've been friends with 2 since the mid 80s, so the whole transition thing isn't new.

What is new I the idea of self id and lack of discussion about how it will work in real life. Self Id is not about trans women or trans men, or not all of them! It is about revisionism... it is about ignoring biology... it is about men!

Add to that the aggressive blocking of discussion, no platforming and general 'shushing' of women who raise their voices and you have c.50% of the population feeling aggrieved that less than 1% of the population is being given carte blanche to uproot a century's worth of hard won rights and is a distinct backwards step.

We do need open discussion. We do need spaces like this to go through disbelief, anger, resentment and to come to an understanding and then to viable solutions.

We don't need to be told we cannot say a trans woman is a trans woman and that is a male journey (or that a trans man is a trans man and that is a female journey).

We should be able to acknowledge that a trans woman is male, a trans man is female... that is their sex, their biology.

We should also be able to accept that any trans person who wishes to 'lives as' the opposite sex they can, and do, have done forever! Gender fluidity is not an issue, or shouldn't be.

But we don't have to trample all over women and their issues in order to do any of it.

@Rufus thank you - that's what I was asking and I appreciate your answer. I feel that this thread has been derailed (partly by my posts) and is becoming another debate that is going nowhere

Thanks just hooking

I'm afraid that the vocal minority will shout down any suggestion of transphobia and insist they're just being realistic and testing bad laws or some such.

I really do think that it's a small but very vocal group discussing it but I also think that unfortunately mumsnet is condoning it, sorry.

I just hide every thread I see and carry on supporting my trans friends and family as best I can.

Recently there was a thread that was the usual "trans women are men with a fetish and a danger to 'real' women" that MN lets stand, but someone had posted extracts from an individual's online diary (like Facebook) from over 10 years ago to 'prove' this.
To be fair MN did delete them once I reported them but that suggests no-one else thought that was out of order in over 24 hours.
There's people on MN complaining they are threatened by trans people but from my end of the Internet it seems much more the other way round.

This is a pity because there is a need for meaningful debate on the issue that’s what feminists want to do, but the TRAs will.not.let.us! They threaten and manipulate the venues where we want to discuss the safety of women and the impact of self ID. I’m not going to call a man a woman because they tell me to. They have no right to order me to lie about what sex they are.

I think there is a difference between attacking a group, and attacking an idiology.
Eg, a misogynistic statement about women should be deleted, but a statement criticising feminism should be allowed to stand (even though I may disagree with that statement).
A sweeping racist statement about black people should be deleted, but a discussion about intersectionallity should be allowed.

Likewise, it should be perfectly fine to criticise the behaviour and language of a particular person, whether they are female, disabled, black, or trans etc. As long as the language used doesn't cross a line. That line is not always easily defined, and cannot be defined solely by what the person on the receiving end finds offensive.

For example, I always try to use a person's preferred pronouns but I am not convinced that "misgendering" someone should be considered offensive in the way the N word is. I don't like it when people call me the wrong surname, or use chauvinistic language but it is not and should not be illegal.

What you mean is you are trying to shut women up from voicing there important concerns about what is currently happening with TRA'S?

that is not atall the case and there is a difference between voicing concerns and being a bully and attacking people

I have a bit of free time, happy to help report the transphobic threads referred to many times, which ones are they?