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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think Mumsnet need to revise their talk guidelines?

379 replies

abeautifulmess · 05/03/2018 15:43

I have reported a number of threads recently and the mumsnet response has been 'we don't allow posts that break our talk guidelines' and nothing has been done when the whole thread has been attacking a particular (and vulnerable) group.

AIBU to question these guidelines and how they are applied?

OP posts:
Lovesagin · 05/03/2018 17:26

So which threads that inspired this one need to be gone? I've had a shit day and could do with reporting my tension away! Grin

HandbagKrabby · 05/03/2018 17:27

I massively resent how ideas about not using racist, sexist or homophobic language that make the world a kinder, fairer place are currently being twisted to attack people for saying the truth about biological sex. There’s literally nothing you can say about sex or gender that cannot be construed to be ‘transphobic’ and we need to talk about these things.

If you feel a post breaks talk guidelines report and move on. If you want to police anything that might be upsetting to someone who’s trans then the whole site needs shutting down. Mumsnet as a name is problematic and exclusionary after all.

Sittinonthefloor · 05/03/2018 17:27

The thing is it's not a 'cut and dried' argument. I've got a biology degree I know that human beings can't change sex. Trans people might not want to hear it but I'm not doing anything wrong in saying it. A MIT trans might want to be called 'she' and whatever name they choose. I'd used their chosen name but I wouldn't refer to them as she - I don't believe that I have to go along with what they want, it's not true that they are a man so why should I pretend it is. Incidentally it has no parallels with racism at all. Racist people say untrue things about people of different races. Also, misgendering is not a thing. If people choose to self-misgender that's up to them.

CapricornWithAUnicornHorn · 05/03/2018 17:29

I also reported an anti trans thread where posters shared their quite frankly disgusting views and was told something along the lines of 'mumsnet is one of the only places these discussions are allowed and they are carefully monitored'

That's clearly bullshit. The posters in those threads are absolutely pathetic and should have their accounts banned. Mumsnet are giving them a platform to promote their hatred towards others and on any other subject (sexuality, race, disability) this wouldn't be allowed. So I have no fucking idea why this isn't classed as a hate crime.

When I first noticed the trans threads I was like, oh lovely trans people are supported here and it must be a website where they can get help and advice of trans issues. Little did I know (until I opened a couple of threads a few weeks back) that in fact those threads were filled with nasty degrading ugly comments from people. I was so shocked that it was allowed. Absolutely vile people and to think the people on those threads walk by us day in day out. It's sickening.

Lovesagin · 05/03/2018 17:30

That sounds awful Capricorn, which thread was it?

Valentinesfart · 05/03/2018 17:32

I don't belive in gender. I don't think it's real, so I can't misgender someeone. I don't assign people a gender. I use "he/she" etc to denote a person of a specific sex.

I am not misgendering anyone because I make no assumptions about their gender.

Schlimbesserung · 05/03/2018 17:32

I think it's important to bear in mind that the posters who are accused of being aggressive or antagonistic probably feel that they are fighting to prevent the snatching away of their own rights in favour of a smaller but much more fashionable- not to mention vocal- group.

It's easier to debate "nicely" (ie as expected of properly behaved women) when you have nothing to lose by doing so. The problem is that women who discuss issues nicely tend to be trampled or ignored.

Original poster
abeautifulmess · 05/03/2018 17:33

Thanks Curious - I had missed your reply further up thread. I think maybe I need to delete this thread as it was a badly written OP and hasn't really resulted in the kind of discussion I thought it might. A really interesting question asked by a PP would be whether all topics should be treated the same under the talk guidelines - that is something I had never considered and gives me food for throught

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/03/2018 17:34

But saying that misrepresents the vast majority of posters on those threads. Unless you also believe that every single one of us who has replied here is a liar and a trans hating TERF - which, I remind you, would be utterly impossible for at least one of us.

Which thread was it? I don't read them all, maybe you are right and we can read it and discuss where it overstepped the line! That would be quite a valuable discussion to have!

Lovesagin · 05/03/2018 17:35

Before you get it deleted op which threads are you thinking of?

I do feel a bit Paxman, but genuinely, which ones are transphobic threads, I'll report as will many others i suspect. If you and others really think they are transphobic and you genuinely want them gone, let's get them gone.

soapboxqueen · 05/03/2018 17:36

Funny Capricorn that you identified what you believe to be a hate crime against transpersons in a post. Do you know which group of people cannot have a hate crime committed against them?... Women.

Truscum · 05/03/2018 17:37

Trans people might not want to hear it but I'm not doing anything wrong in saying it

Absolutely true. I know I bang on about my support group a bit on here but from that I’ve developed certain views.

Not a single one of us there actually believes we have changed sex. We are all kinds of messed up but not that crazy. It’s more about a hatred of our own body.

I can fully understand and respect the conclusion that gender critical women are reaching now. That partaking in any of the delusion (even of the ‘genuine’ dysmorphic trans) is opening the door wider for the current batch of perverts and misogynists hell bent on using the trans cause to their advantage.

I’m usually more baffled by the posters who insist that I am a woman, when I’ve quite clearly stated that I most certainly am not (and the only trans’women’ insisting on that mantra are the kind that love their ‘lady penis’ and have no intention of actually changing themselves at all)

Carriemac · 05/03/2018 17:38

I think feminist posters are deleted, censored, banned and suspended for doing nothing more antagonistic than being truthful. Far more than other posters are. I think these women are held to a different standard and have to carefully moderate their language to tread the fine line between being truthful and being compelled to say untrue things.

This absolutely.
And I really object to the use of cis

Original poster
abeautifulmess · 05/03/2018 17:38

@Lovesagin maybe I could PM you about it if that's alright and if you agree/feel like there is point could report. I'm feeling this was a bit of a full on thread and that any threads I identify will be jumped on.

OP posts:
TattyTShirt · 05/03/2018 17:38

Is anyone going to post a link to the threads that are offensive to Transmen/Women?

Valentinesfart · 05/03/2018 17:38

I don't think MN will delete it as it's not outing.

But really you did have transgender threads in mind (even if not specifically) so you haven't got it wrong with the OP.

It's just that peope are saying "trans" doesn't mean anything in it's current incarnation so you can't attack it. Literally I have never seen one anti transexual comment on MN. People have problems with transvestittes calling themself "trans" or males saying they are gender fluid and calling themselves a feminine name on certain days as that makes womanhood a mask to be put on. Or the potential for abuse if you let literally anyone call themselves anything they like without a GRC.

None of that is transphobic. It's not the same as racism, or ableism, homophobia

Sittinonthefloor · 05/03/2018 17:38

Capricorn - it's only since the appearance of loud penis-retaining men trying to invade women's spaces that this has happened. It's defensive anger you're reading, not attack.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/03/2018 17:39

Sorry, my last post was @Capricorn Smile

Abeautifulmess (I think I got it right that time) don't bother asking for it to be deleted. It has been interesting. Just take a deep breath and ask a better framed question Smile

FYI - I do NOT believe all topics should be treated the same under the talk guidelines, as you probably got from my previous post Smile

Truscum · 05/03/2018 17:39

Never read anything like that on here CapricornWithAUnicornHorn.

Though if it’s as you say and mn don’t delete threads like that, could you link it for me please?

Lovesagin · 05/03/2018 17:39

Go for it op!

LineysInTheSnow · 05/03/2018 17:39

transphobia on MN isn't just accepted, it's condoned by MNHQ

That's a very serious (and, I think, false) accusation to level against Justine Roberts and colleagues. Maybe this isn't the talk forum for you?

CapnHaddock · 05/03/2018 17:40

I've got trans friends who are infuriated by the whole TRA agenda. I really feel for them - they are TIMs who have had surgery, have GRCs and are quietly living their lives. And the loudmouth shouty likes of Paris Lees have defined what trans means.

Actually if all transwomen were like my friends, I'd really not have much of a problem saying that transwomen are women because it's a kindness and it doesn't affect me one iota. But the pushing and barging of boundaries has totally made me rethink my earlier polite and kind approach.

I think transpeople are absolutely welcome on MN - as evidenced by the number of TW who post here

Schlimbesserung · 05/03/2018 17:41

Oops, I pressed post too soon there.
Previously all I knew about trans people was the basics- gender dysphoria, long arduous process, reassignment etc. Socially I'm totally fine with calling someone Ms, Mr, whatever floats their boat really. It doesn't harm me and if I like someone enough to talk to them then I like them enough to address them how they want me to. It doesn't hurt me and it costs me nothing. That doesn't mean that I'm going to agree with a transwoman who tells me that she is able to give birth, or that she is now a biological woman, because she just can't, and isn't.

What people are getting to upset about is the threat of women actually losing protections which were hard-won and desperately needed. This is more than just being nice or showing empathy to people who have clearly struggled.

Valentinesfart · 05/03/2018 17:42

The anger also comed from the fact that we are told we can't discuss this and that we don't need to as sexual violence by tansmales "never happens" when actually, it happens a lot. I'd wager more by trans males than by women as a whole. Which implies that they are either not a tiny minority, or that they are males withl male pattern tendancies. One of which is sexual violence (though I would argue that's nurture not nature)

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 05/03/2018 17:43

Lovesagin

Will you stop it Grin

Honestly you and that report button...no one is going to link to something you can report cos those posts have usually been deleted

God loves a trier