To be really surprised that UK women were able to get maternity leave & pay, and abortion rights?

[SonicVersusGynaephobia]

I, of course, 100% think they should have them.

But women in the UK at the moment just seem so irrelevant. Women suffering seems to not matter to anyone in power.

Examples such as
-Still having a gender pay gap and equal pay issues.

-Trans Activism getting rid of all women-only spaces and services, many of which are needed for women's safety. Women not even being allowed to discuss this. Women who try being threatened with rape and murder, and no political party calling any of this out.

-Rape convictions. I mean holy fucking Christ, how awful is that Ulster Rugby rape trial that is going on at the moment? The way the victim is being treated is harrowing. The burden of proof the prosecution needs "guilty beyond all reasonable doubt", is just impossible in a 1:1 scenario, nevermind when there are 4 of them, and none of them even have to take the stand to give evidence in case they all trip each other up, because not one of their stories match

-Lenient sentences for men convicted of serious domestic violence.

-Obstetrics and Gynaecology care - women being made to give birth without pain relief, getting poor pain relief afterwards, and being made to have a vaginal birth when they really don't want to. Being ignored when in labour. Then the issues they need to deal with afterwards, incontinence, pain, prolapses, sexual disfunction, etc.

-Welfare cuts massively disproportionately affecting women. Poorer women. And therefore children.

-Pathetic Child Maintenance Service and the loopholes that allow men to not bother.

There are others. These are just the few bothering me this morning.

So truly, I cannot believe how successful feminists a few decades ago were at getting us the rights that many people are still so angry about us having (eg abortions). I'm amazed they were able to get enough traction to have their voices heard, and actually listened to, and laws implemented to protect women, in spite of so many men being so, so against it.

I feel it would never happen today. Despite women apparently having it better than ever. I'm completely in awe of how they managed to get us the rights they did. I feel so inadequate in comparison, that my voice for protecting women is so ineffectual, no matter how I try.

induction involves exams, drugs, procedures etc that all need consent. If you decline them and induction has been recommended, your obstetric team has little choice but to section you. This happens reasonably often half way through a lengthy induction (that a woman withdraws consent for further exams or drugs or rupture if membranes)

That doesn't work. I was induced, but I said I only would try the prostaglandin 3 times but not the ARM or the drip. I was told I wasn't allowed to say no to the ARM or drip. Once the process of induction starts, then they have to see it through to the end if required.

This obviously made me very unsure about going ahead with the induction. To which I was given a barrage of information from the doctor and midwife about how I was putting the baby at risk by going even one day over 42 weeks. No mention of the risks of induction, btw. So I reluctantly accepted they had to induce me.

So you really don't get a choice. Not a free choice, anyway.

Can The Ulster trial is horrendous. Her ‘glittery top’ and ‘black thong’ shown to the jury with the implication that someone wearing that would be looking for sex. Just horrific.

@SonicVersusGynaephobia oh they massively played down the risks of induction and even told me I'd still be encouraged to get up and walk around.

In actual fact I was encouraged to keep as still as possible because the monitor kept losing my baby's heartbeat.

april

Don’t be so silly it happens all the time

treacle, I had to fight for pain relief, my twins were in SCBU so I could barely walk to them. Even when I had a chair to take it the bitch pushing it made me walk the length of the ward to it rather than bringing it to me. The exact same as you, insisting that peppermint water should shift it (I knew it wasn’t wind). Only changed because members of the hospital board came across me crying struggling up to SCBU to my babies.

I know it’s hard @mirime, I should have expressed that better. I basically took the summer off work in order to protect my sister from it. It’s bloody awful that I thought that was necessary.

obviously if there is a medical need then you should be able to have one, however just wanting to not have a vaginal delivery is not a good reason

After my first birth and the loss of my first daughter I went through 16 weeks of relentless complications. I had a retained placenta which meant I needed a D&C, I had two major post partum haemorrhages as they hadn't got all the placenta during the d&c. All in all I bled for 16 weeks afterwards, despite repeated calls and visits to the hospitals, I was never taken seriously and it was passed off as 'heavy periods' despite it being constant and I was pumped full of medication to try to lessen the flow. It didn't stop until two small fragments of placenta came away during one particularly heavy bleed.

After all that I wanted to minimise the chances of it happening again as much as possible and despite there being no 'medical' reason to have a c section (except for you know, my mental health maybe) I asked for (and got) one as I absolutely did not want another vaginal birth.

I have bad experiences of childbirth as well and I definitely think men would never be subjected to go through what so many women have to on a daily basis.
The first time I wasn't listed to and came in to hospital at 7cm crying in pain and still had to sit in a waiting room with other people. I know so many women who were turned away despite being in labour, denied pain relief and scolded for making noise ect. I also found informed consent was non-existent, fingers shoved into me, things happening without being explained, no efforts made to obtain any degree of dignity or privacy.
Women are actively discouraged from knowing their rights during labour. Birth plans are sneered as and mocked and discouraged because they are about knowing your rights, your options and risks/benefits of different procedures.
Women are told not to expect dignity but a lot of the time dignity isn't afforded when it actually very easily could be. Birthing women a woman seen as deserving of no respect.
Maternal request c-sections on the NHS is fairly new and some hospitals point blank refuse to offer them. Many hospitals deal with women requesting one by presenting her with extremely bias, one-sided information about how deadly dangerous planned sections are and how wonderful and easily vaginal births are.

Many hospitals deal with women requesting one by presenting her with extremely bias, one-sided information about how deadly dangerous planned sections are and how wonderful and easily vaginal births are.

Yup. I had a registrar try to scare me out of having a section. While I was lay having a scan, so I was already feeling vulnerable (I had to have a lot of scans). I was in tears flat on my back feeling exposed, it was awful. Her reasoning was I would 'probably' be fine this time.

YANBU. At all.

Can pp avoid commenting too much on the ongoing Ulster rugby case, though? MNHQ might have to delete those posts and it would be a shame to lose the thread or make it so Swiss cheese holey that it becomes unintelligible

I am shocked and horrified by the childbirth accounts on this thread. Just horrific.

I have two biological children and the births and care afterwards were great, I also have a three month old grand daughter and her birth was great and the care afterwards was amazing. I even wrote the midwives a review to the health care trust they were that good.

I would have been screaming the hospital down if my DD had been treat the way some of you have. Disgusting treatment.

Two C-sections here, and never even once had oral morphine!
Was discharged at 48hrs, told to take paracetamol and ibuprofen.
After the first section, I was given three days worth of diclofenac, but not after second.

Accessing pain relief in labour was a joke. Like the poster above, I was given a spinal after 24 hours of labour, when it was clear that if they didn't cut my baby out imminently, she was going to die.

But to go back to the OP, I think that during the war, the country had had to rely on women's labour far more, that as a group we had more collective power. Something that seems to have been eroded at present.

May well be but I also think it is a consequences of the anti- medicalisation push by groups like the NCT peddling the idea that childbirth is a natural human function, no need for (male) doctors to get involved when you have lovely (female) midwives.

An example of be careful what you wish for.

It's interesting, though, that there aren't a lot of examples of women getting the medical care they want when it's more expensive. The NCB lobby, which has always had plenty of men in leading roles and which has never spoken for all women, is an unusual example. Worth interrogating why.

Also with tearing and episiotomies, can you imagine if a man had some sort of crazy accident which caused them to sustain an injury equivalent to an episiotomy on their perineum and be stitched up. People would be shocked and horrified for them. They would be encouraged to stay in bed and not move for 2 weeks.

can you imagine if a man had some sort of crazy accident which caused them to sustain an injury equivalent to an episiotomy on their perineum and be stitched up. People would be shocked and horrified for them. They would be encouraged to stay in bed and not move for 2 weeks.

And he would be given local anaesthetic to the area so that he couldn't feel it...

Yes!
Labour pain is often only talked about in terms of contractions but what about all the women who split and tear with no local anaesthetic. Episiotomies are also sometimes done with no anaesthetic. Pretty barbaric when you think about it.

I agree completely with all your points op

I am - at 45 - in a political wilderness as no party is taking a stance on the danger of self ID to women's rights

No party is taking a stance on the gender pay gap

No party is tackling the chronic under funding of the nhs

And after brexit the disaster capitalists will get rid of min wage, sick pay and maternity pay and maternity leave

So so depressed

I know a gynae and have worked with them

Or as they call their speciality "twats and brats"

😩

I agree that the way women are treated is appalling. I had a traumatic birth and was in horrific pain during labour, particularly the pushing stage where I was begging for help and the midwife just got shirty with me. When the baby crowned I was in so much pain I couldn't breathe, I actually thought I was dying. I had a third degree tear and there was hardly any follow up - no one checked my stitches in the week I was in hospital, nor did the midwife when I got home. I never saw a physiotherapist despite being told I would be contacted for an appointment at about 12 weeks pp. My friend was told to be quiet in childbirth by a midwife with no pain relief at all, not even gas and air. I have several friends who were denied access to delivery suites because no one believed they were in labour - with a couple delivering in waiting rooms or being rushed into a suite as the baby was born. One of my relatives had a hysterectomy and the next day all she was given was paracetamol. We went to visit and they had made her sit on a chair to eat her lunch - she was sobbing in pain. We discharged her despite being told she should stay and put her to bed with paracetamol and ibuprofen at home, which was better care than she had been receiving in hospital. It's disgraceful. I am currently really broody again but the thought of having to be subjected to all that pain and potential lifelong conditions due to substandard care really puts me off.

There's nothing natural about childbirth... that was my thoughts after the 1st one. And it was relatively straight forward.

And I had a great experience with the NHS. So much so, that when I moved to a country that prefers ECS I was adamant I wanted a natural birth.

The second one didn't go so well and the problems that are affecting my life 6 years later, affects so many parts of it that at times I didn't want to live.

ALL of my friends in this country had ECS. NONE of them have any problems. Not a single one. Not a single one is adversely affected by it. People have surgery (major surgery) all the time. They get treated accordingly. But when you give birth, or even EMCS, it's seen as just 'child birth'.

It's sickening. And even though I don't live in the UK anymore, it seems to be prevalent everywhere. I dispare for women all over the world.

The Ulster rugby trial stuff is horrendous

Youre not wrong sonic

At all...which is sad really

Yep
Got told I wasn't in labour
Got told to take paracetamol
I was 5/6 cms dilated

I’m with you op.

We need to sort it out - if my dd experiences a tenth of the shit I’ve experienced because I’m female I’ll be devestated.

DC school was closed on Friday due to snow. I had stuff I absolutely had to get done that I could not take four children along to without it being massively disruptive (hospital appointments) so DH rang work to say "so sorry, children unexpectedly off school, I won't be in as I'll be looking after them".

Works response?

"But you have a wife, can't she do it....?